Teamwork - A Better Way

Christian Napier
00:13 - 00:24
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Teamwork, A Better Way. I'm Christian Apier, and I am joined by the autumn-ly festive Spencer Horn. Spencer, how you doing?

Spencer Horn
00:24 - 00:35
Great, and just keeping on with the theme from last week, you know, got the leaves up in the mountains are still beautiful and turning and falling. How are you doing?

Christian Napier
00:36 - 00:52
I'm doing well, although my voice is out of sync with my face. about three seconds behind. I don't know what's going on with my video but viewers please exercise patience. I'm not sure what kind of technical difficulty I'm having over here.

Christian Napier
00:52 - 00:54
I've tried two different network connections and I'm still-

Spencer Horn
00:54 - 01:01
You know Christian, I think both you and I have an issue. It's our faces that are the problem but our voices are actually pretty good so just listen to his

Christian Napier
01:01 - 01:03
silvery voice and everything will

Spencer Horn
01:03 - 01:04
be

Christian Napier
01:04 - 01:10
fine. As they used to say back in the day, a face made for radio. That's what I

Spencer Horn
01:10 - 01:17
have here. That's right. So I heard you did a road trip this weekend. You had to beautiful Pocatello.

Christian Napier
01:19 - 01:33
Yeah, so actually we did a couple of different road trips. Of course, as you know, it was extremely rainy this weekend. Yes, it was. That kind of put a damper on things, but my wife and I have a tradition to go uh...

Christian Napier
01:33 - 01:50
in our church we have a conference twice a year and uh... we have a tradition on one of those conference days to drive up to Pocatello and have some tacos and then drive back. It's about a two and a half hour drive up to Pocatello and then two and a half hours back. So it's sixty dollars in gas for twenty dollars in tacos and uh...

Christian Napier
01:50 - 01:50
it's a lot of

Spencer Horn
01:50 - 02:18
fun. Well we we have one tradition that we do on Sunday morning of conference and that is I make Eierflinzen, which are the German version of crepes. And we have all kinds of like cream cheese and whipped cream filling, raspberry compote, Nutella, bananas, and then of course topped with whipped cream, anything you want to put on it. And so we have grandkids and kids over and watch conference.

Spencer Horn
02:18 - 02:19
So that was a treat.

Christian Napier
02:20 - 02:25
That sounds delicious. I'm gonna invite myself over to your conference celebration.

Spencer Horn
02:25 - 02:31
Every six months, nine o'clock on Sunday morning, right before conference, you're absolutely

Christian Napier
02:31 - 02:46
welcome. That's perfect. Well, enough about the conference banter. We need to talk about the topic for today, trust, and you've got probably one of the best guests that we could imagine to talk about this topic

Spencer Horn
02:46 - 02:47
today.

Christian Napier
02:47 - 02:48
100%.

Spencer Horn
02:49 - 02:58
I can't wait. I'm so excited. We have Darcy Luoma, my friend. I'm going to put her on the screen while we talk about her because you and I have been on there too long by ourselves.

Spencer Horn
02:58 - 03:12
There she is. I love Darcy. She and I met, Christian, about four years ago at a National Speakers Association conference in Las Vegas. I accidentally sat down at her table.

Spencer Horn
03:12 - 03:19
It was one of the pre-conference events. Do you remember that? I do. And I just started to get to know her.

Spencer Horn
03:19 - 03:30
And everybody in the room knew her. And I'm like, all right, I get to know this person. I found out that she likes to, I mean, she's like a triathlete. She's just a health crazy person.

Spencer Horn
03:30 - 03:41
I mean, she's always doing fun things. And so I said, hey, there's a great hike. Let's go. And we went on one of my favorites called Craft Mountain Loop in Las Vegas.

Spencer Horn
03:41 - 03:44
She trusted me. Did it work out okay, Darcy?

Darcy Luoma
03:44 - 03:53
It worked out great. And there was a high degree of trust because that was no joke of a hike. And you were phenomenal as a tour guide. I loved it.

Spencer Horn
03:54 - 04:04
It's been so much fun. And I think we had to leave at like five in the morning or something like that. And then this most recent conference in Phoenix, we were in, where were we? It's not Phoenix.

Darcy Luoma
04:04 - 04:05
Scottsdale.

Spencer Horn
04:05 - 04:16
Scottsdale, yeah. There's like four of us, Marcy and I forget some of your other friends, we went and Piestewa Peak, is that what it's called?

Darcy Luoma
04:17 - 04:18
Yes.

Spencer Horn
04:19 - 04:28
But now I can't keep up with Darcy. She's such an athlete. So I went by myself and they went like on four miles. I did like a one mile thing and then, you know.

Spencer Horn
04:29 - 04:29
Straight

Darcy Luoma
04:29 - 04:31
up. Yeah, but I got back like

Spencer Horn
04:32 - 04:45
five minutes before them and they did four miles. But here's Darcy. Let me tell you a little bit more about her. So she's the author of Thoughtfully Fit, which I have a copy of, signed copy.

Spencer Horn
04:45 - 05:23
She's a certified speaking professional, yes, is a master certified coach and inspiring speaker. I've heard her speak and that is true. She has worked as director for a U.S. Senator, trusted senior advisor to a governor, and on the national advance team for the White House and two presidential campaigns, Christian. As the CEO of Darcy LaWalma Coaching and Consulting, she's worked in 48 industries with more than 500 organizations to create high-performing people and teams, which is absolutely the focus of our podcast, Darcy, so perfect fit.

Spencer Horn
05:23 - 05:41
And she balances running, which we talked a little bit about, with her thriving business and raising two energetic teenage daughters. What an awesome job that is for you. And she loves adventure. She and I actually got to hang out a little bit in Bali together with my wife, Jana.

Spencer Horn
05:41 - 05:59
and having a wonderful event there. She loves travel and competing in triathlons for the last 25 years. Now, that's a very, very simple bio. What I, you know, what she doesn't talk about is, you know, and I can't remember exactly because I'm reading about it in her book.

Spencer Horn
06:00 - 06:03
She's got like this Master's of Organizational Development from Pepperdine. Is that right?

Darcy Luoma
06:04 - 06:05
That's right.

Spencer Horn
06:06 - 06:28
So she's pretty smart, and there's more that she's very humble. I mean, her less than a paragraph bio is, I think, very indicative of her natural kind of reserved speaking about herself. What I know, she does not like to talk about herself, so I needed to slobber on you, Darcy, because I think you're absolutely amazing.

Darcy Luoma
06:29 - 06:33
I think you're amazing, Spencer, and it's such an honor to be here with you and Christian.

Spencer Horn
06:33 - 06:42
Thank you. Well, let's get started. So you had, you say that you have been coaching before coaching was even a thing, right? I mean, you're not even that old.

Spencer Horn
06:42 - 07:01
How's that even possible? But so how, just talk about how you got into this coaching, how you got into this life and into being able to do all this coaching for like senators. She, so Christian, you'll love this. She has coached, um, high performing, uh, sports, uh, performers like, uh, college collegiate and NFL.

Spencer Horn
07:01 - 07:13
So she's coached all kinds of high performers and in all kinds of industries and sports. Christian is a huge, huge sports fanatic, which we'll talk about in a sec. So how'd you get, how'd you start there?

Darcy Luoma
07:14 - 07:54
Yeah, it's funny because, you know, I spent a couple decades in politics, as I mentioned, and I would be sitting, I ran Senator Herb Kohl's office here in Wisconsin, and this is a story that's indicative. I'd be sitting in a meeting, there'd be lobbyists and constituents that would come in, they'd have a whole group, and they would be you know, talking about what the number one most important thing is for them. And whatever it was, whether it was Falun Dafa or social security reform and the Iraq war. And at some point in that hour long meeting, after like 40 minutes, they would be like, so Darcy, what does Senator Kohl think about this?

Darcy Luoma
07:54 - 08:15
And I would be caught off guard because the whole time I'm paying attention to the dynamics in the room. And I wonder if we had done introductions, if the other voices that are quiet would feel more comfortable speaking. And I wonder, there's a second row that isn't sitting at the table. If they came and sat at the table, if they would...

Darcy Luoma
08:15 - 08:47
And I'm looking at how how the interplay is of the team dynamics in that room. And so then I'd be like, oh, let me look into that and get back to you. Because I was always I've always loved looking at how people communicate how they handle themselves, how they disagree, whether there's alignment. And so that, after, you know, 20 years in the political field, I realized that this is truly my passion.

Darcy Luoma
08:47 - 09:15
So I went and got my master's, as you said, at Pepperdine in Organization Development. And I did my master's thesis on the impact of coaching on overall life satisfaction. And I did a 2-year deep dive. It took 100 former U.S. Senate interns, and that worked for me, randomly selected 10, coached them weekly for three months, and we did pre-tests and post-tests, and I hired a UW-Madison professor to do all the stats, and he came back and said, oh my gosh, Darcy, you should

Darcy Luoma
09:15 - 09:38
publish. You can unequivocally say that regardless of where someone starts at the beginning of their coaching journey, age, gender, what their level of self-awareness is, their goals, that after three months of coaching, they have a higher degree of satisfaction and they have a better goal attainment. So that started my then journey to getting certified and going down that coaching path.

Spencer Horn
09:38 - 10:00
You know, I think that is terrific because, you know, part of your temperament really actually showed up in that story that you're observing. And I love your response when you're caught off guard to kind of speak up instead of just blurting out an answer, which I would do. You're like, let me get back to you, right? And I think that's so appropriate.

Spencer Horn
10:01 - 10:01
One thing-

Darcy Luoma
10:01 - 10:14
Well, it's interesting because our topic is trust. I'll tell you, that's the one thing I learned. Senator Kohl always said, you don't give an answer. If you aren't 100% certain, you find out and it'll build trust if you say, I'm not sure.

Spencer Horn
10:14 - 10:23
And I love that. And some people are actually feel like when they're put on the spot that to say they're unsure, you know, shooting themselves in the foot. It's not. It's not.

Spencer Horn
10:23 - 10:52
It's actually sometimes the absolute right thing to do. But, you know, this this whole coaching research that you did, I think it's really interesting because there's a lot of coaches out there that, you know, they have this step, you know, five step, three step, 10 step, this program. To me, that's not really coaching, is it? I mean, when When I look at, you know, I love this, she's thoughtfully fit, Christian, and that's what it, and she reminds me a lot of you because you're so thoughtful as well.

Spencer Horn
10:53 - 11:11
But I think part of your success as a coach is, You recognize that the high performers that you work with have their own expertise. You don't need their expertise. You just need to help them figure out how to get to their goals, which sometimes they don't know, right? They're focused on their goals.

Spencer Horn
11:11 - 11:25
They don't know how to get there. And you help remove those goals, not by telling them what to do, but by helping them see things differently. And I think that's what a great coach can do. And so sometimes you gotta just shut up and listen, right?

Darcy Luoma
11:27 - 12:00
Yeah, coaching is very different. When I went for my MCC, my Master Certified Coach designation, if there's any indication in sending in those recordings and I had to send in recordings of me coaching people live, of teaching, telling, fixing, advising, it's an automatic fail. And 94% of people fail at that master level, because that's not coaching. And so to be able to just mirror back and reflect back and say, Here's what I'm hearing, here's what I'm hearing is important to you.

Darcy Luoma
12:00 - 12:10
What's important about that? OK, what does it look like if you were successful? And what are the obstacles to success? And if you got past those obstacles, how would you do that?

Darcy Luoma
12:10 - 12:29
Where would you start? And there's just a lot of, it's different than sports coaching in that regard, in that the client is truly the expert. And I'm there as the coach to help them create some new awareness and then identify some actions and have some built-in accountability to take those actions.

Christian Napier
12:32 - 13:10
Okay, I want to come back to this idea of you not being the expert, they're being the expert. So oftentimes in business, we feel like we have to be the expert to have credibility, and credibility is integral to the trust, right? So if you come in and you say, well, I'm not the expert in this particular industry or this particular area of technical expertise, that's not really my domain. How do you then establish credibility and trust with people as you're helping them when sometimes people might say, well, what does she know?

Christian Napier
13:10 - 13:29
She has no idea about the stuff that I do. I live and breathe and do this every single day. And so sometimes you can start on what could be perceived as a position of weakness because you don't have expertise in a particular domain. So how do you overcome that?

Christian Napier
13:29 - 13:32
to make sure that you establish credibility, which then leads to trust?

Darcy Luoma
13:34 - 14:18
Such a critical question, Christian, because when, and we also do, in our firm, we do consulting and we do training and workshops, and there, we are the experts. We're the experts in team development and leadership and how to communicate effectively and how to have alignment and how to build trust. So when we pull out and look just at coaching as the modem for working with a client, there, yep, I work in fields and industries, manufacturing and healthcare, all sorts of, where I have no idea. The benefit of that is I don't come in saying, oh, I know what your problem is, here's how you can fix it.

Darcy Luoma
14:18 - 14:45
Because I have no idea, even if I was in that industry, how to fix it. And so the beauty of coaching is when you truly hold the person or the team as the expert, they know how to fix it. They know how to move past it. And so there's times when I can ask the really naive, dumb question that just blows apart the new awareness.

Darcy Luoma
14:45 - 15:05
Because I'm not coming in with any hidden agenda or any like, Oh, I think you need to do this, or you should do that. It's what makes, I think, coaching so incredibly powerful. But I do want to just distinguish that when we are coming in and, you know, with our training or consulting hat on, then of course, we have a framework. Of course, we have expertise.

Darcy Luoma
15:06 - 15:39
But coaching is, I think that's what makes it powerful. Because when you come to me, let's just say, Christian, with an issue that you're struggling with, or a dream that you have, I don't know what is driving that, what's important about it, what your values are, what success looks like, what's getting in the way. I can make up what it would be for me. But as soon as I do that, I'm limiting the breadth and depth and power of your getting to where you wanna go because I'm putting it through the lens of my experience and filtering it through my own values and struggles, which of course is gonna be very different

Darcy Luoma
15:39 - 15:41
than yours. Does that make it?

Spencer Horn
15:53 - 15:54
Yeah, I told you I'd do that.

Darcy Luoma
15:55 - 15:56
Hey,

Spencer Horn
15:56 - 16:27
we got a comment and we so Amy, I don't know if you know Amy Mangan Fisher She's just cheering you on So, you know you brought up a subject Christian that I psychologist Amy Cuddy talks about, right? She talks about which is more important. She frames it this way, what's more important, trust or credibility? I'm sure I'm getting it wrong.

Spencer Horn
16:28 - 17:00
And then she'll ask it a different way, or warmth versus competence, right? Because when you say warmth versus competence, people say, well, competence, of course, you gotta put competence first, especially since you've got a degree from Pepperdine and Christian, we've got all these, we've put so much, money into being right, so often we think we need to be right, but she says, evolutionarily speaking, trust always comes first, right? I mean, go back to, let's just say, you know, I think I have some Neanderthal in my DNA.

Spencer Horn
17:00 - 17:22
things. And so back in the Neanderthal days, Christian, I mean, if I came into your camp and asked, let me show you how good of a fire builder I am, would you really care if you were afraid that I was going to, you know, kill you and steal your wife and sell her into slavery? That's the whole thing is, first of all, we have to have trust before we can demonstrate our competence.

Spencer Horn
17:22 - 17:35
But let's get into this idea of trust. What do you think, Darcy, that most leaders get wrong about trust in the workplace? That's kind of the theme of our topic today.

Darcy Luoma
17:37 - 18:00
Yeah. So I think... I don't know if most leaders get it wrong, but I, so I'm just talking and processing as I'm answering this question. I think a lot get it wrong is that trust is, I mean, I want you to think about it like, oxygen in a workout.

Darcy Luoma
18:00 - 18:15
So you talked about Thoughtfully Fit, the model. That model that we use is a metaphor for being physically fit. And if you want to be physically fit, we know that you need to train, you need to practice. And when you do, you're going to get better results and be less likely to get injured.

Darcy Luoma
18:15 - 18:44
Same thing is true when you're thoughtfully fit, when you're handling your obstacles thoughtfully, when you are a thoughtful leader, when you are reflective. And so I want you to think about, and I think the place where leaders sometimes will miss the mark is that trust is like oxygen in a workout. You don't notice it when it's there, but without it, everything falls apart fast. So trust is strong.

Darcy Luoma
18:44 - 18:55
People are going to give their best effort. They're going to communicate openly. They're going to stick around. And when you don't have the trust, you're going to manage fear and gossip.

Darcy Luoma
18:55 - 19:08
You're going to be constantly second guessing, or they'll be second guessing you. And so when you don't have trust, there's oftentimes this negative sentiment override that people don't give the benefit of the doubt. They're guarded. They're post-meeting meetings.

Darcy Luoma
19:08 - 19:19
There's triangulation, all these things. So I think that critical. It's, it is so critical. It's like oxygen, that it's the foundation, and you need that.

Darcy Luoma
19:19 - 19:32
And so I don't, again, I don't know if leaders are missing it as much as they're just not recognizing how critical that is to ROI, to meeting your goals, to everything else you want to be doing with your team.

Spencer Horn
19:38 - 19:41
I'm writing down my next question, Christian. I'm throwing it to you, brother. My

Christian Napier
19:41 - 20:05
internet's being a little wonky. No, my internet's being a little bit wonky. You know, one of the questions that I have is just how pervasive is the problem of trust in the workplace? You know, Spencer likes to talk about teams and only, you know, eight to 12% of teams are high performing teams.

Christian Napier
20:05 - 20:28
And also, you know, there are several statistics out there about how people have negative perceptions of their bosses and so on and so forth. So it sounds to me like There's a significant trust issue in the workplace. So I'm curious in the work that you've done, in research that you've done, or in coaching that you've done, how pervasive is this issue? And in your view, what are the root

Darcy Luoma
20:28 - 21:02
causes? quite pervasive, although the level of awareness of the trust or lack of trust on that spectrum that's there is not always high. So, for instance, I've been working with a team, doing some team coaching, an executive leadership team, who was struggling. They were not They were not necessarily dysfunctional, they were not necessarily toxic.

Darcy Luoma
21:02 - 21:22
So we come in when we're doing team coaching at sort of a couple of key places. When it's a brand new team and they want to supercharge their success and say, let's do team coaching so that we can design our alliance, we can get really clear, make sure that we are aligned. that we communicate strong, that we understand each other's preferences, then there's times that we come in. The second is when a team is fine.

Darcy Luoma
21:22 - 21:30
It's the, it's the other four-letter F word. It's fine. But it's, but they want to, they want, they don't want to be fine. They don't want to win the regionals.

Darcy Luoma
21:30 - 21:47
They want to win state. They want to win the Super Bowl and they want to supercharge their success. The third time is when it's dysfunctional. So maybe at the first signs of it being sort of just fine, they don't pay attention and it erodes to becoming dysfunctional.

Darcy Luoma
21:47 - 22:37
And then if you don't really intentionally address the, um, that the negative communication, the lack of trust, the misalignment at those stages, and the team goes on, then it becomes toxic. And there's toxins, there's 4 toxins that show up when a team is, is, is full-blown toxic. And so the teams that we work with, The benefit of team coaching is there's some hitting the pause button to reference and reflect on where are we on that spectrum and what is the level of trust we have or we don't have. And surprisingly, there's a lot of times where they are shocked that the views of how much trust on the team is there by different team members is different.

Darcy Luoma
22:37 - 22:47
That one team member is like, I think we're great. I totally trust this team. And another is like, uh, you know, yeah, I don't know. I'm, I'm a little bit more guarded.

Darcy Luoma
22:47 - 23:17
I'm not sure that I fully trust everybody on this team. And so that's one of the things that we do is raise awareness on where is the trust? And then in particular, if we look at it going from a team lens to the individual lens, so I coach a lot of individuals, there's unawareness. I just had a coaching session last week with a CEO, and she actually said, you know, I need, Darcy, what I need to do is figure out how to show up.

Darcy Luoma
23:17 - 23:33
I cannot be vulnerable. I can't show emotion because they're going to think that I'm weak. And we explored that and went deeper. And in the 360 that we did, what we found is that the team doesn't always trust her because she's so guarded, and she doesn't ever let them see what she's really thinking.

Darcy Luoma
23:34 - 23:59
So we explored that and said, I get it that that's important to show strength and credibility. And yet, What's the impact on the level of trust with the team when you're so guarded that you're not letting them in to experience what your fears are and what your vulnerabilities are? And that was a real, we said, How pervasive is it? That was a real blind spot for her.

Darcy Luoma
23:59 - 24:05
And I see that quite often. I'm going to pause there because I feel like I could go on and on and on. I'm going to let you tell me where you want to

Spencer Horn
24:05 - 24:25
begin. No, we love you going on and on and on. It's interesting because not only are not a lot of teams high performing, but there's a correlation between the awareness of trust and maybe the self-awareness. I mean, some psychologists say self-awareness is low worldwide, about 10 to 15%.

Spencer Horn
24:25 - 24:40
Sometimes we're just not aware of other people. And Darcy, it's interesting. I mean, I do team coaching as well, and I'll do an assessment. And you can tell whether there's trust on the team, because sometimes we'll do an activity that represents the question we ask on the survey.

Spencer Horn
24:40 - 24:50
So for example, when it comes to trust, where do you feel we are as a team? And I have like numbers on the wall from scale from 1 to 10. Where do you think we are? And we do a human scattergram.

Spencer Horn
24:51 - 25:09
And usually they're a little bit more generous live than they were on the survey, but we still, it's so nice for them to see that there's a range of people, like some are at three and some are at nine. And then we say, okay, so why were you at nine? Why did you rate it so high? And we listen, here's why I see it this way.

Spencer Horn
25:09 - 25:23
And people at three, here's why I see it this way. And then we ask a few people in the middle. So it's nice to be able to see those different perspectives, which sometimes leaders don't get. But I love the, I wanna go back to something you said about practice, if we can.

Spencer Horn
25:23 - 25:51
You're talking about the need for reps and practice to be high performing in sports. And I love what you're saying in that when it comes to thoughts and maybe communication and leadership, we need to do the same thing. And it's my experience that when leaders need to have tough conversations, they don't practice. They want to be authentic.

Spencer Horn
25:51 - 26:03
They want to be real. So they just go in and they wing it and they screw it up. And so my question is, how does that impact trust? And how do they get to a place where they, I mean, how do you work with them so that they can get the

Darcy Luoma
26:03 - 26:26
reps? Yes, I think, oh, there's so much richness there. And I love what you just shared about the scattergram. And just to comment about that, before I go into the question, you know, you, it's, it's sort of natural, you can understand that there's different views of the level of trust on the team, because everybody comes in with their own experience, their own family of origin.

Darcy Luoma
26:26 - 26:44
And if you look at it through, you know, the lens of dogs, just for a moment, We had eight foster dogs during COVID. You might meet one dog out at the dog park and it's like, oh my gosh, yay, you're my new best friend. Can you pet me? And you just go in and you start petting them and you're like, oh, you're so cute.

Darcy Luoma
26:44 - 27:09
And you're giving them kisses. And then you walk half a mile and you meet another dog and you can see that they are They're guarded, their hair might be up. You have presented yourself exactly the same, but you can tell that there is not a trust there. And so then you need to respond differently and you might get down real low and sort of put your hand out and let them sniff you and sort of see what their comfort level is.

Darcy Luoma
27:10 - 27:32
You've done nothing different. So when you look at a team, of course, there's going to be all sorts of different opinions about the level of trust because we all bring our own experiences to the table. And that's why it's critical to practice, to get in the reps on building the trust, because I want you to think about trust like a verb. And it's something that you do rather than something that you have.

Darcy Luoma
27:33 - 27:59
And so that means consistently demonstrating behaviors that build trust and reinforce trust. especially when we're talking right now about teams in the workplace. And so when you think about trust as a verb, yeah, you can practice. You can put in the reps to build the trust instead of just, you know, sort of pulling up your hands and saying, well, I don't know why they don't trust me, right?

Darcy Luoma
27:59 - 28:13
They just, I don't know what I've done or haven't done. Um, it's a lot harder to build the trust if you don't think about it as a series of consistently demonstrating behaviors. The hard, and that's, that's, that's a good news. You can practice it.

Darcy Luoma
28:13 - 28:47
You can train the, the, the more challenging news is that there are different behaviors that build trust for different people, just like with those two dogs. And so some people, um, It builds trust when you have strong follow-through, you stick to your commitments, you're someone you can count on. Others, it builds trust when you own your flaws, you admit your mistakes and your weaknesses openly. Some people, it builds trust when you call out accountability, when you hold yourself and other people's feet to the fire and you don't let things slide through.

Darcy Luoma
28:47 - 29:16
Others want you to speak freely, like that builds trust when it's like, you know, no nonsense, direct, conversation. So the, the playbook becomes more complicated when you add in the dynamics of a whole team and team members who have varying degrees of trust, and the behaviors that improve and increase trust for them are different than the other members on the team.

Spencer Horn
29:25 - 29:36
I love that answer. And Christian, I'm chomping at the bit to talk about something because this is a passion point for me, but I've been hogging the time. So Christian, go ahead. I'll come back to it.

Christian Napier
29:38 - 30:17
No need to worry about hogging time. This conversation is fantastic and I'm enjoying just listening and observing and kind of soaking in all of the knowledge here that you're sharing with us, Darcy and Spencer. One of the questions that I have is you mentioned you've been involved a lot in sports, and we're at the time of year where certain teams who perform, like college football, perform very poorly over a period of time, eventually will make a change in leadership. They say, okay, well, this coach isn't working out.

Christian Napier
30:17 - 30:42
And oftentimes what you hear is, well, the players don't trust the coach anymore, right? They don't have confidence in this coach anymore. And so they needed to make a change. And I'm curious, from your perspective, when it comes to business, in an organization, how do you know if something can be rehabilitated or if you just need to make a change in leadership?

Christian Napier
30:42 - 30:58
What's the decision process that you go through to determine whether this is recoverable with these individuals or we're past the point of no return and to move in a different direction, we need to make a change in

Darcy Luoma
30:58 - 31:19
personnel. It's a critical question. And as you might imagine, it's nuanced. So to me, with the right training, how you show up can increase and improve trust.

Darcy Luoma
31:20 - 31:49
If you just say, well, this is who I am and this is how I behave and how I operate and how I lead, take it or leave it, that's not going to intentionally build trust. So the people it works for, great. The people it doesn't, that's not going to improve or increase the trust. So I think that There's always an opportunity and room to build trust before you just say, OK, this person's got to go, whether it's the leader or a team member.

Darcy Luoma
31:49 - 32:21
If indeed there is an interest and a willingness to look within and to say, What's my role in how strong the trust is or isn't on this team? And what can I do to improve or change the trust? If, if a leader comes in and just is in a place of blaming others, they're the victim, they're throwing people under the bus, to me, and they don't have that interest in trying to look within and say, what's my part? How can I improve the dynamics and increase trust?

Darcy Luoma
32:21 - 32:47
That's when you might say it's time to, to let them go and time to, to move on. If they can see even a 2% truth in feedback they're getting and own that and want, and it can be coachable, then I say like double down and coach them through that. It's when there's not that interest in making those changes that I think it's a red flag and tougher decisions need to be made.

Spencer Horn
32:48 - 33:11
Okay, so you're actually carrying on with the things that I wanted to talk about. This idea, you were talking earlier about the best leaders are absolutely able to adapt to the person in front of them or the dog that they're petting or wanting to pet, right? And I call that flexible authenticity. I think there's a problem that we have with authenticity.

Spencer Horn
33:12 - 33:22
I think there is a misunderstanding what it means to be authentic. That is the problematic leader you just described. Well, this is who I am. Listen, I'm assertive or I'm this way.

Spencer Horn
33:22 - 34:00
We make excuses because this is who I am and the world tells us we should be who we are. And that's what an authentic leader is. To me, that is the disconnect with trust is because we think, well, I've taken this assessment and this is where I get the best results. It's a huge mistake because what the behavior needs to be flexible, the values need to be Fixed if you will write the values that we have are not to be fungible or changeable But we can adapt to the situation to get the best result and I find that

Spencer Horn
34:00 - 34:17
the most What I consider authentic leaders are able to do that. You're not okay being fake when you change your approach, you are being, but that's, that's my opinion. And I'm so passionate about that. How do you answer that criticism while you're, you're just, you're being a chameleon, right?

Spencer Horn
34:18 - 34:29
And you're not being real. I mean, to me, it's, it's, it's a, it's a non-issue, but I think that this is something that I fight to address all the time and I'm so passionate about. So I'd love to hear your perspective on that.

Darcy Luoma
34:30 - 34:58
And the framework, flexible authenticity, beautiful. Alison Shapira is a colleague of ours in the National Speakers Association. And last month she had a newsletter that went out a blog and it talked about the authentic leader and how, okay, if you're authentically bored in a meeting and you don't roll your eyes and open up your laptop and start working, yeah, that's your authentic experience. But I think that's a perfect example where That's the

Spencer Horn
34:58 - 35:07
paradox of authenticity, right? You're actually shooting yourself in the foot by being your authentic self. Such a cop-out.

Darcy Luoma
35:07 - 35:27
It's such a cop out. Yes. So, yeah, I mean, when you have emotional intelligence, you're not only looking at what your own experience is, you're also looking at the social interaction and what others' experience is, and then consciously choosing how you're going to show up in that moment instead of just doubling down on your own experience.

Darcy Luoma
35:27 - 35:52
To me, that's a indication of a really strong, thoughtfully fit leader is their ability to, as you said, hold their own values, and yet know that they need to show up in a way differently for one employee than they do for another in order to build trust, in order to get the most out of them, in order to connect, because we all have those different personalities and styles.

Spencer Horn
36:06 - 36:09
I didn't know all this about you, now I like you even more, Darcy.

Darcy Luoma
36:11 - 36:11
I love

Spencer Horn
36:11 - 36:14
that. Did you notice that Christian's internet's working now?

Darcy Luoma
36:16 - 36:16
Yay!

Christian Napier
36:17 - 36:45
Well, yeah, I have no idea what's going on. Anyway, one of the questions that I've got for you, Darcy, as we're having this conversation is, I'm curious about... The relationship between trust and follow through, sometimes one of the reasons that we don't have trust is that we make promises and we don't keep them. And I'm curious to know a little bit more about that.

Christian Napier
36:45 - 37:19
I think sometimes people are sincere when they make a commitment, but for whatever reasons, they don't seem to follow through. why is that? You know, why is it that people, especially leaders, you know, will make promises that at that time, they may be genuinely intentional about it, and they want to keep those promises, but for whatever reason, they don't follow through, and then they you know, their teams lose trust in them because they haven't done, they haven't actually done the work and they haven't followed through.

Christian Napier
37:19 - 37:31
So I'm curious, in your view, what is keeping people from following through? Like, why, you know, why do we make these commitments and then we don't follow through on them? And then what we've done is we've broken trust, and it's really hard to get it back.

Darcy Luoma
37:33 - 38:28
yes and i mean i think why there's probably a full range of reasons um from just being completely overwhelmed and uh not being able to follow through because there's only so many hours in the day and if everything's important nothing is which might be caused by not having strong delegation, not having clear roles and responsibilities, so I'm doing too much, so I'm not following through because I can't, taking the monkeys on your back. There's, I think, a whole range of reasons from why people, leaders don't follow through. And it's just to highlight what I shared a little bit ago, when you look at the research on the trust behaviors, follow through is, in our, how we list them, it's number two, as a behavior that will negatively impact trust.

Darcy Luoma
38:28 - 38:52
So if you don't stick to your commitments, and I would think about like when we put it through that athletic, physical fitness performance, it's like you show up at practice every time rain or shine. You follow through. Your word is solid. I think that the overwhelm is probably, I'm guessing, the number one reason why somebody doesn't follow through.

Darcy Luoma
38:52 - 39:14
I don't actually think a leader wakes up in the morning and says, you know, oh, Joe, no, he's not important. I'm not going to follow through on him today. I think it's a matter of triaging and then not being able to communicate well or set really clear boundaries or guidelines on how much I can handle as a leader. to be able to accomplish whatever it is that they're needing to follow through on.

Spencer Horn
39:16 - 39:33
You know, this is actually one of the things that you say people bring to coaching, right? You say the six biggest problems, and this is according to your book right here, the six top problems people bring to coaching are number one, I have too much to do. I can't even think. So you were just addressing that.

Spencer Horn
39:33 - 39:46
Number two, I don't always handle myself the way I'd like. I think that relates a little bit to your question, Christian, when we're overwhelmed. Number three, I feel stuck and have no idea how to move forward. And this is the one I like.

Spencer Horn
39:46 - 39:57
I get annoyed when people don't do what I want them to do. So that leads us to tough conversations, which we'll talk about. Five, people push my buttons and I lose it. Well, that's an awareness and emotional intelligence issue, right?

Spencer Horn
39:58 - 40:25
And number six, my boss, partner, children, friend, co-worker, co-host, neighbor is driving me crazy. In other words, it's, I'm kidding you, Christian, it's them, not me. So when it comes to these problems, and you say that in 10 years, those are the six top problems that you deal with in coaching. When it comes to, let's say, people not doing what we expect them to do, that can be a really, especially for leaders of teams, right?

Spencer Horn
40:26 - 40:50
Teams not follow, not the leader not following through, but now our teams not following through, not meeting deadlines, not achieving their expressed goals or said the commitments that they've made. How do you have tough conversations and maintain trust? How do you have an accountability culture where people respect you because you do it right?

Darcy Luoma
40:53 - 41:31
Yeah, calling out accountability is one of the top 10 trust behaviors, and not only being able to be accountable yourself and follow through, but then holding others' feet to the fire. And I think, you know, when I talked about those teams at different stages, when it's a brand new team, that you take time up front to design and say, OK, how do we want to design? How do we want our team to hold each other accountable? Because if you set it up that only the leader has the ability to call out accountability and hold people's feet to the fire, they're going to be exhausted and overwhelmed and thus not be able to follow through on their commitments.

Darcy Luoma
41:31 - 42:12
So taking the time to say, How do we want to create an environment where we feel comfortable calling each other out and, and really holding each other accountable? And so, you know, if I'm a team member, and you have said that you're going to get me something by noon on Friday, and now it's Monday, and I haven't gotten it, When you have a strong team culture with high degree of accountability, instead of calling the boss and saying, Joe didn't get me what I needed again, I'm so frustrated, and now the boss has got another monkey on his or her back that has to go and follow up with Joe, you call out accountability, say, Joe, This is frustrating. You said you'd have it to me on Friday.

Darcy Luoma
42:12 - 42:21
I'm wondering if we can talk, because I'm noticing that this is becoming a pattern. So, which is the second. So the first one is, you got a new team. Talk about it up front.

Darcy Luoma
42:21 - 42:24
How do we want to create a new partner? So that's like team

Spencer Horn
42:24 - 42:27
agreements, right? This is how we behave on this team, and everybody agrees. Yeah, OK.

Darcy Luoma
42:27 - 42:51
That's exactly what it is. Then the other one is if you have noticing that there's a pattern, that's the time you go have that tough conversation. That you go and say, and that's another trust behavior, is to be able to speak freely to the person instead of triangulating and going to somebody else. and saying, hey, I'm feeling frustrated.

Darcy Luoma
42:51 - 43:21
You said that you would have something done, and it's not done. And it may be, if this is a pattern, I'm noticing that this is a pattern, and I'm wondering if we can talk through what's going on here. Because what that means is my team now is behind, and our handoff to the next team is going to be delayed because of that. And that is another critical behavior that increases trust, is to be able to speak Uh, freely and to encourage direct conversations.

Spencer Horn
43:22 - 43:34
And it's hard because few teams do that. Well, I mean, Hey Christian, you know, we're playing a basketball game and he, you know, he, I missed my pick. And so he didn't score. He needs to be able to call me out and said, Spencer, that was the play.

Spencer Horn
43:34 - 43:44
You missed your, you missed your position. And instead of me being defensive, I own it. And that's hard to get to. Um, Christian, we have a comment from Amy and a question specifically for you.

Spencer Horn
43:45 - 43:52
Um, Darcy, I'm going to put it on the screen here. What suggestions do you have for teams that are feeling overwhelmed?

Darcy Luoma
43:55 - 44:22
Yeah, and it's a, it's a great question, because what team isn't feeling overwhelmed? And I want to, I Put it through the lens of when you think about teams that have high degree of trust, one of the components is they're able to communicate openly and honestly and say, I'm overwhelmed. OK, we've got these 17 priorities. I can't do more.

Darcy Luoma
44:22 - 44:40
I have to prioritize, can we talk about as a team, what are the highest priorities to be able to communicate? One of the things that is a misnomer or a misconception about trust is that trust means that everyone agrees. That's absolutely. I'm so happy

Spencer Horn
44:40 - 44:42
you brought that up. So happy.

Darcy Luoma
44:42 - 44:45
There's healthy disagreement, right? Yes, and

Spencer Horn
44:45 - 45:00
that's actually the thing that people, in my experience, teams do the worst. It's called constructive interaction, meaning they struggle most with disagreement. And most teams worldwide, that's the hardest issue. Sorry to interrupt, but I agree with you.

Darcy Luoma
45:01 - 45:15
Yes, absolutely. So if I trust you, I'm going to speak up when I don't agree with you. If I don't trust you, I'm going to go after the post-meeting meeting and talk to somebody else and say, I can't believe that Spencer did that. And can you believe?

Darcy Luoma
45:15 - 45:50
And I'm going to triangulate and bring somebody else in. And so that feeling of when a team is overwhelmed, being able to have that constructive interaction, to be able to name it, to be able to prioritize, And to do it in a way that is when it's not too late. I mean, there are subtle signs that show up when trust is eroding on a team. Everything might seem fine on the surface, but a team's overwhelmed and trust is slowly eroding because maybe people aren't talking about it or naming it, what that can look like.

Darcy Luoma
45:51 - 46:13
People saying yes in meetings, but then dragging their feet afterwards and not following through. to your point, because if I'm going to say yes, because I don't trust the team and the environment to say no, I don't have the capacity. Side conversations popping up instead of direct ones. Meetings where nobody is challenging ideas, because silence is safer than honesty.

Darcy Luoma
46:15 - 46:34
When team members start to become guarded and meetings are quiet, that feeling overwhelmed becomes pervasive. If you don't have the ability to have, as you named it, constructive interaction, to be able to have healthy conflict, that's then when you're heading towards that spectrum of toxins, unfortunately.

Spencer Horn
46:36 - 46:49
Christian, we've got to name our sponsor, and I know you've got a question, so.

Christian Napier
46:49 - 46:52
Oh, yeah, yeah. Go for it, Spencer. Let's get the sponsor.

Spencer Horn
46:52 - 47:10
So we have a sponsor, Darcy, which I'm so grateful for, Team Coaching International. And we're talking about teams. There's lots of different types of teams, project teams, cross-functional teams, virtual teams. And one of the things that we do is we assess them with a team diagnostic.

Spencer Horn
47:11 - 47:33
And we figure out where they are on this spectrum of productivity versus positivity, which is, the ability to sustain productivity, right? So if you think about it, a team that's highly productive but low positive, that's kind of what we're talking about. Toxic, there's turnover, it's not sustainable. And then if you look at a team that's highly positive but not productive, well, that's not sustainable either.

Spencer Horn
47:33 - 47:48
Of course, the You're out of business very quick if it's low productive and low positive. And so every team has a little bit of all of those. That's what this white square represents, where you are in terms of your max on productivity or lowest on the positivity. So we look at that.

Spencer Horn
47:48 - 48:06
And each of those models of productivity and positivity have seven elements. And trust is one of those, right? So trust, respect. and valuing diversity and constructive interaction so we can see where the team is doing with those positivity elements and productivity elements.

Spencer Horn
48:07 - 48:32
And we take a real close look at that. And so I'm not gonna spend a lot of time, and we really drill down into where the team is. And if you would like to experience what is called the team diagnostic, Take a picture of this QR code, or we'll put a link in the show notes, and you can do a free version of the team diagnostic. So it's not a true diagnostic in the sense that everybody takes it.

Spencer Horn
48:32 - 48:53
It's what's called a team leader view. So Darcy, if you took this, this would be your perspective of the team. So it's a team leader view of the team, but you at least get to experience how this diagnostic works. And so we invite you to take a test run of that and see how that could help really identify where your team needs help.

Spencer Horn
48:53 - 48:55
All right, back to our guest. Christian,

Christian Napier
48:56 - 49:12
carry us forward. All right, well, we've just got a few minutes left in our conversation here today, Darcy. So I'll ask my final question and then hand it over to Spencer, who may have one or more questions for you to wrap it up here. My final question is this.

Christian Napier
49:13 - 49:28
I find it instructive sometimes to look at words and their meanings in different languages. In Spanish, the word for trust is confianza. This also happens to be the word for confidence. Confianza is the same word.

Christian Napier
49:29 - 49:49
And so I'm curious to hear from your perspective, what is the relationship between trust and confidence? Is it exactly the same thing? Are there differences? Again, I'm just asking this question because I'm kind of a language nerd and I like these kinds of things.

Christian Napier
49:49 - 49:53
But in your perspective, the relationship between trust and confidence.

Darcy Luoma
49:54 - 50:06
What a fun question, Christian. That's fascinating. And before I answer it, let me just say for your sponsor, Team Coaching International, fantastic tool. The Team Diagnostic- Do you use it?

Darcy Luoma
50:06 - 50:08
We use it all the time.

Speaker 2
50:08 - 50:10
We got to talk.

Darcy Luoma
50:10 - 50:14
Oh yeah, we love it. We do it pre. I am so glad

Speaker 2
50:14 - 50:15
that you use it.

Darcy Luoma
50:16 - 50:24
Seven indicators, positivity, productivity, and then we'll do 12 month engagement and we'll do a post and we'll look at where the scores have changed. Yes. Great tool.

Spencer Horn
50:24 - 50:27
Okay, we gotta talk before we leave. That's so great.

Darcy Luoma
50:27 - 50:46
I'm so glad you're here. Okay, here we go. Highly reliable, highly valid, yes. So to your question, it's not something I will be just really honest and vulnerable here and say that I have not ever thought about the relationship directly between trust and confidence.

Darcy Luoma
50:46 - 51:29
So I'm going to answer your question and process out loud as I'm reflecting on that. And I think, to me, when, when, when trust is high, the relationship has high confidence. But it's interesting, because also, if, if there is high trust, I think that there's also an ability to be vulnerable and to say, maybe the confidence is low, like, y'all, I don't, I don't know if this is the right strategy for our team. I want to, I want to see if we can pause here and look at some of our assumptions we're making in the process of identifying this strategy and this goal before we move forward.

Darcy Luoma
51:29 - 52:05
And I think that Well, I don't know if that's necessarily a lack of confidence, but it's to me, I guess, the confidence to be able to know that there is psychological safety here, and that I can say what needs to be said because the environment is trusting enough the team has a high enough trust that I can speak openly. And I guess as I'm talking in circles here, that does take confidence to be able to say, I see it differently. My perspective is a little bit different than yours.

Darcy Luoma
52:06 - 52:20
Can I share another perspective? I would guess if trust is low on a team that the confidence to speak up and disagree and share a different perspective would be lower. And I'm curious, Christian, if you have other thoughts on that relationship, because it's such a great question.

Spencer Horn
52:21 - 52:29
In Italian, it's fiducia. So fiduciary. Right? That's trust, is a fiduciary.

Spencer Horn
52:30 - 52:43
Someone that has responsibility. You know, you said that, for example, trust is a verb, it's doing, it's taking action. Well, that's what a fiduciary does, right? It takes responsibility and protects.

Christian Napier
52:45 - 52:45
Yeah,

Spencer Horn
52:45 - 52:46
you know, I kind of look at

Christian Napier
52:46 - 53:01
it. Yeah, sorry to interrupt. I just kind of look at it like, you know, when we think about trust, we think about it more from kind of a moral and emotional center. And confidence perhaps comes from competence, right?

Christian Napier
53:01 - 53:19
So it kind of goes back to what you were talking about earlier in the conversation. you know, having competence and credibility versus, you know, this kind of moral authenticity. And I just think it's interesting in a different language, they're one in

Spencer Horn
53:19 - 53:36
the same. You know what, Christian, I didn't finish Amy Cuddy's conclusion. Both are equally important, competence and warmth or trust, but the trust comes first. before you demonstrate your competence, people have to trust you.

Spencer Horn
53:36 - 53:54
And Darcy's example of the dog is exactly why, right? I don't earn the right to pet the dog unless the dog trusts me. But once I have that, then I can create that relationship, right? And that's, to me, both are important.

Spencer Horn
53:54 - 54:01
So you gotta have the competence, but you're so right, they're so reinforcing. Sorry, I just got so excited, Kristen.

Darcy Luoma
54:01 - 54:12
I love that, and so I have to just add in, was a German major, I looked up quickly, trust in German is vertrauen, which interestingly says confidence, faith, reliance.

Speaker 2
54:13 - 54:17
Yes. Trust. That's the truth. That's excellent.

Speaker 2
54:17 - 54:18
Fantastic.

Darcy Luoma
54:21 - 54:24
I forgot that you speak German. Yes, I

Spencer Horn
54:24 - 54:32
speak a little German. That's incredible. Okay, so I have for you a lightning... Well, hold on.

Spencer Horn
54:32 - 54:58
We gotta punch you like that. All right, we have what's called a lightning round. And so I have 10 questions for you that you just like one word answers or really quick answers, just whatever off the top of your head, okay? Trust is built fastest when a leader blank.

Darcy Luoma
54:59 - 55:00
Is honest.

Spencer Horn
55:01 - 55:03
A common trust killer in teams is?

Darcy Luoma
55:03 - 55:12
Triangulating, talking to somebody else about what you're upset about.

Spencer Horn
55:12 - 55:15
One word that describes a high trust culture?

Darcy Luoma
55:19 - 55:20
Confidence.

Spencer Horn
55:22 - 55:25
A leader you admire who models trust well?

Darcy Luoma
55:28 - 55:30
U.S. Senator Herb Kohl, my former boss.

Spencer Horn
55:32 - 55:34
What's worse, micromanaging or ghosting your team?

Darcy Luoma
55:38 - 55:40
That's like, what would you rather eat, a worm or a frog?

Christian Napier
55:43 - 55:44
Depends on the preparation.

Darcy Luoma
55:45 - 55:53
Yeah. I mean, I guess I would say ghosting is worse because then there's like no ability to even have a conversation. In the absence of

Spencer Horn
55:53 - 55:56
information, people awfulize and catastrophize, don't they?

Darcy Luoma
55:57 - 55:57
Yeah.

Spencer Horn
55:57 - 56:00
Yeah. Okay. Can you repair trust after it's been broken? Yes or no?

Darcy Luoma
56:01 - 56:01
Yes.

Spencer Horn
56:02 - 56:07
Your favorite part of coaching leaders?

Darcy Luoma
56:07 - 56:19
helping them create new awareness, see their blind spots in a way where they feel really excited and empowered to make changes that will improve the dynamics on the team.

Spencer Horn
56:20 - 56:24
Yes. What breaks trust quicker, ego or avoidance?

Darcy Luoma
56:30 - 56:32
I'm going to go with avoidance.

Spencer Horn
56:32 - 56:40
Okay, that's consistent with the other question. Your go-to book besides yours on leadership or trust?

Darcy Luoma
56:40 - 56:42
Well, The Speed of Trust, Stephen Covey is fabulous.

Spencer Horn
56:43 - 56:48
Yes. Finish the sentence, thoughtfully fit leaders always...

Darcy Luoma
56:50 - 56:54
Train and practice to be high performing. Don't leave it to chance.

Christian Napier
56:55 - 57:23
I love that. Wow, well, thanks for being so game to play along with Spencer's lightning round questions. Darcy, to wrap it up, if people want to learn more about how you or your organization can help them either individually or help their organization build higher performing teams, what's the best way for them to connect with you?

Darcy Luoma
57:23 - 57:42
We're on all the social platforms and our website is DarcyLoma.com. Then we also have, if you go to ThoughtfullyFitTeams.com, there's a Teams quiz you can take that's just a couple of minutes that will give you a diagnostic of your, in this moment in time, where your team falls in a category of four different spectrums.

Spencer Horn
57:43 - 58:01
Okay, I got a teaser, her Wisconsin accent. So for those of you who don't know, it's Luoma, right? If that's how you spell it, not Loma, but so L-U-O-M-A, if you're looking for her, just, yeah, I love the Wisconsin accent. I love you.

Darcy Luoma
58:03 - 58:11
That is so funny because I don't hear it at all. And when I go to the West Coast or the East Coast, yeah, it's apparent. They all tease

Christian Napier
58:11 - 58:11
you?

Darcy Luoma
58:12 - 58:15
That's

Christian Napier
58:15 - 58:21
all right. We don't think we have an accent either. Oh, we totally do. Other places are like, oh yeah, you definitely do have an accent.

Christian Napier
58:22 - 58:32
All right, Spencer, you've been helping teams for decades. Your organization has built high performing teams and you coach individuals as well. If people want to connect with you, what's the best way to contact you?

Spencer Horn
58:32 - 59:03
Reach out on LinkedIn to find me there You can see my website is connected there. You can schedule a Consultation with me right there from from my LinkedIn and Christian gosh I'm so sad that we didn't have more time to get to know Christian Darcy, but he's been a consultant for major game space like the International Olympic committee and organizing committees, and right now he's leading the digital transformation for the state of Utah. Does so much.

Spencer Horn
59:03 - 59:16
He's an entrepreneur, a technologist, AI, just a regular good guy, and a foodie like none other. So people who want to find a thoughtful and incredible consultant, how do they get a hold of you, Christian?

Christian Napier
59:17 - 59:24
Wow. Whenever I need to apply for a job and inflate my resume, I know who to talk to. Spencer, thank you very

Spencer Horn
59:24 - 59:26
much. Any time, any

Christian Napier
59:26 - 59:31
time. Folks, just anybody reach out to me on LinkedIn. That's the easiest way to do it. Happy to connect with people.

Christian Napier
59:31 - 59:49
So this has been a fantastic. a fantastic hour, Darcy and Spencer, and so grateful to you for carving time out of your schedules to have this conversation. And thank you listeners and viewers for chiming in, and we really appreciate you. Please like and subscribe to our podcast.

Christian Napier
59:49 - 59:50
We'll catch you again soon.