Teamwork - A Better Way

00:13 - 00:27
Christian Napier: Well hello everyone and welcome to a Friday edition of Teamwork a Better Way. I'm Christian Napier joined by Spencer Horn in scorching but amazing Salt Lake City. Spencer, how are you doing?

00:28 - 00:41
Spencer Horn: Good. Trying to keep trying to keep cool. Started this new thing, trying to get cold showers and cold baths. I want to get to a point where I can do an ice plunge. You ever done that?

00:41 - 00:42
Christian Napier: Oh my gosh, I've never done it.

00:44 - 01:17
Spencer Horn: Well, I've been studying about just the benefits of pain. I always talk about something I'm super passionate about is not just relying on your strengths, but working on weaknesses. And now I have the science that I've just learned about what happens to our brains when we only do those things that are easy or pleasurable and our brains actually compensate by making us less happy. The more pain and challenges that we experience, the happier and more energetic and satisfied we are.

01:18 - 01:50
Christian Napier: Well, it sounds a little masochistic, but I get it, right? When someone triumphs over a significant challenge or overcomes a big obstacle, you know, there is a feeling of satisfaction, even at times, euphoria, or great relief that that, you know, has been overcome. And, and usually that comes with some learnings. And so, there's also joy that comes from expanding one's own knowledge base, you know? Absolutely true, but

01:50 - 02:21
Spencer Horn: you can take it too far. Like, you know, if you're in extreme sports and you're, if you go skydiving, you know, once or twice, that fear that you face creates that euphoria that you're talking about. However, if you do it again and again and again and again, actually makes you less happy. So to your point of masochism, that's not the point. I mean, if you think of our ancestors, you know, grandparents, great grandparents worked, you know, 12 to 14 hours a day just to live. Many of us are working hard today, but we have so many

02:22 - 02:54
Spencer Horn: conveniences that make life so easy. We have entertainment on our fingers, 5, 000 channels of different shows that we can watch. And any food, I mean, you and I are going to lunch today. We can just go find our favorite food instantly. We don't have to forage or hunt or prepare it. You know, we just go. And yet we're less happy than ever. Anxiety and frustration as being measured by the psychologist is higher than almost ever before since we've been keeping records. And why is it when things are so easy and we have so much? Well,

02:54 - 03:16
Spencer Horn: that's part of it. Our brains actually compensate for that extra pleasure by reducing the amount of enjoyment that we experience. It's just like the same thing happens with drugs and extra dopamine, right? You take so much after a while, your body, your brain actually adjusts. So a certain amount of pain is actually very beneficial. I got here. And I

03:16 - 03:57
Christian Napier: will say when it comes to the 5, 000 channels or 5 million podcasts or 50 million YouTube Videos or whatever we thank you viewers and listeners for making the choice to come and spend a little bit of time with us today We've got I for me a very I'm passionate about this topic Spencer that you identified. It's product management and project management. And so, why don't you give us a little bit of the backstory, how we arrived at this. You read an article on product management and you sent it to me and we both had some

03:57 - 04:04
Christian Napier: interesting perspectives on it. Why don't you give us a little bit of the background of this article and how we arrived at this topic.

04:04 - 04:51
Spencer Horn: Yeah, so there's this author and I'm a little cheesed off at the article, but I think there's some important discussions and learnings, but this Joe Procopio, who's been a technology entrepreneur for 25 years, starts off by writing how much garbage there is out there about The number 1 tech skills that you need to have, it seems like so many people are writing right now about the need to have certain tech skills, for example, become an AI prompt wizard. Even the project management institute has certifications right now that to teach you how to use prompts. And he's

04:51 - 05:04
Spencer Horn: critical of the fact that most project managers aren't even technology savvy. And so I think I don't know that you have to be a tech expert to be a good project manager, do you? You do not.

05:05 - 05:18
Christian Napier: You do not. You know, sometimes people feel like I have to have these tech skills so that I've got credibility. But at the end of the day, the tech skills are not the most important thing for.

05:18 - 05:53
Spencer Horn: Yeah. And so he, but he, but he feels it is, it's kind of like the project management is divorced from what really makes a, you know, a tech person successful and he equates that to what are some of the product management skills We'll get to that in a second. But basically, he's talking about, and it's an important topic, what are the tech skills that are gonna make you unfirable or save your bacon in the future as technology becomes more prevalent, meaning AI is taking more and more jobs. Something I've been talking about, I wrote a keynote

05:54 - 06:34
Spencer Horn: 7 years ago called, How to Stay Relevant in the Age of Big Data and AI, and that was years ago, talking about how AI was really, and big data was going to be a threat to many of our jobs. And it's certainly proven true that the idea was that 50% of jobs would be replaced by AI by a couple of years ago. That hasn't quite happened. But there was a book that I read years ago, was written in 2015 by a Canadian by the name of Jeff, that's G-E-O-F-F Colvin called, humans are underrated. And I love

06:34 - 07:11
Spencer Horn: this book because he talks about the human skills that technology will never be able to replicate. And it is my belief that those are the skills that will actually make you irreplaceable in the future as technology becomes more prevalent. But let's come back to this gentleman, Joe. He's a little self-righteous in the fact that all these articles that are written about the number 1 tech skill, He just calls them out as garbage and dismisses them and talks about their ego when, in my opinion, I recognize I have an ego. I like to be right, but he's

07:11 - 07:44
Spencer Horn: talking about how everybody else's egos are the problem when... And so I think he highlights the difference between project management and product management. He wants you to understand that you need to be more than a prompt engineer, meaning as a project manager or as a tech guru engineer, you need to know more than just a few snappy prompts to get AI to do your work for you. And I think that's right, don't you? Oh yeah, absolutely. You have to

07:44 - 08:23
Christian Napier: have some background expertise. Let me give you a rather extreme example That I think it was late last week. I was having a conversation with the gentleman. This gentleman owns a small business and He's also a he's also a coder. So so he's he's in technology. He owns a small business. He decided he wanted to test out the limits of AI by seeing if he could get the AI to build the applications that he needs to run his business.

08:23 - 08:26
Spencer Horn: Oh wow, what an interesting money. Only prompts.

08:27 - 08:34
Christian Napier: Yeah. He wasn't going to edit any line of code. He was going to take what it gave him. He was going to use it.

08:34 - 08:36
Spencer Horn: What an interesting experience. If it

08:36 - 09:09
Christian Napier: didn't work, then he would have the AI troubleshoot itself to say, yeah, this isn't working. Why is it not working? Fix it. He built an application to run his business in 2 weeks. Now, it took him a long time, took him a lot of prompts, but he was able to do it because he was a coder, he was a savvy engineer. He knew the right questions to ask because he had the domain expertise to ask the questions that the AI could then say okay I understand what you're looking for and so without that knowledge he wouldn't

09:09 - 09:10
Christian Napier: be

09:10 - 09:14
Spencer Horn: able to ask the questions to get the AI to do what you know basically no

09:14 - 09:26
Christian Napier: no no So if you don't have the domain expertise, it's harder, if not impossible, to understand how to ask the right questions to get the help that

09:26 - 09:30
Spencer Horn: you need. So he almost probably could have just done it himself anyway. He could have. I mean,

09:30 - 09:34
Christian Napier: he could have written code, but he wanted to do this test.

09:34 - 10:13
Spencer Horn: He wanted to be able to do it. Yeah. Well, so back to this article, you know, he talks about the half million, to quote him, articles that are rooted in some feeling good platitude nonsense. Well, you know, I teach mostly soft skills. So he's talking to me and I take that personal Joe, because he talks about like becoming a team player, ug! Or it'll be whatever some non-sequitur folksy story that already know that they then relate to technology entrepreneurship without having anything to do with technology and entrepreneurship. Well, here's what does have to do with technology

10:13 - 10:52
Spencer Horn: and entrepreneurship. Do you just have to become a machine and code and understand, have some application that you run to understand your customers. Guess what? It is those human skills that allows you to translate the technology and the code into solutions that are valuable and elegant for your customer. You have to have the human skills. You cannot discount them and divorce them from some tech skills. And as a matter of fact, that's 1 of the founders of PMI I happened to be speaking with in Puerto Rico, and I'm blanking all of a sudden because I didn't

10:52 - 11:29
Spencer Horn: plan on saying this, but he just recently passed away. He's 1 of the 6 original founders of PMI. And he said, you know, most project managers don't struggle with the technology. They struggle with the human skills. They struggle with motivating and engaging it with the C-suite, with the business side and making business cases for the profession and motivating the teams to get the work done on time. And those are the things he said that we need. And that comes from somebody who's been in a profession for over 5 decades. So twice as long as you, Joe.

11:30 - 11:48
Christian Napier: Well, so I'm not gonna get into a tit for tat here, but I think 1 of the challenges, I think his, you know, 1 of the central theses is we should be focusing on product management, not project management.

11:49 - 11:59
Spencer Horn: Can you explain the difference between the 2? Will you talk, have our listeners, if you don't know, what's the difference between project management and product management? And why would he say that? So

12:00 - 12:49
Christian Napier: this is common, I'm not making this up. I mean, it's just the general definition, the very, you know, high level distinction between product management and project management and project management is about the how and the when, you know, and and that's the fundamental difference. Product management assumes that a product lives forever, that The product should be shaped by the needs of the customer. And so it's very customer focused, very customer driven, and it iterates over time, and we're gonna be developing forever. Project management has, you know, a project has a definite beginning and an end and

12:49 - 13:24
Christian Napier: It has some milestones and deadlines and that tasks and who's supposed to be doing what when and so on and so forth to make Sure that things actually get done and there are different flavors of that from the traditional waterfall to agile and scaled agile you know safe and You need both You know you can't just have product management without any project management, because if you have just product management, stuff doesn't get done. You never ever release things. If you have project management but no product management you get stuff done but it may not be what

13:24 - 13:52
Christian Napier: the customer needs and so you've got to find a way to effectively marry the 2 very important disciplines both product management project management And I think that he feels like in some areas, it's out of balance. We're focused too much on project management and not enough on product management. So we're not delivering business value for customers and product management is all about delivering business value.

13:53 - 14:27
Spencer Horn: So for example, for this platform that we're broadcasting on and podcasting on, I'm using at least about 10 different technologies. I'm using Ecamm right now that we have, and then I've got a Stream Deck and an ATEM Mini. I've got sound systems, I've got lighting. I mean, I've got cameras, I've got Restream to push it out to all these different formats. All of these things have to work together. So 2 years ago when I got Ecamm, I'm constantly getting updates on how this tool now integrates with this software, because as a user, I wanted to be

14:27 - 14:42
Spencer Horn: able to just push it straight out and through Restream, It didn't work. And so I had to, they had to, I had to come back to Restream. So it looks like as a customer, my needs are ongoing and improving and changing and iterating, therefore the product has to change is what you're saying.

14:43 - 15:21
Christian Napier: That's right. I mean, most of us have been using Microsoft Word and Excel since the 1990s, right? Right? That's when we started using those tools They've been around for 30 years and they continue to evolve They add new features so on and so forth. So from the perspective of Microsoft, you know, product management is absolutely key. We have to, you know, listen to our customers. What is it that they need? And we're going to deliver the features that matter most to them, because if we deliver what they want, they will continue to buy our product. And

15:21 - 16:15
Christian Napier: honestly, I mean, office is in many parts of the world, it's indispensable. I mean, there are other solutions out there, Google Workspace and you know, LibreOffice and those kind of things, but for a large majority of Workers you live in office now What's the difference between what Microsoft's doing with its product and what organizations do with projects? So Organizations may say okay We are migrating from office on local machines on-premise Office 2016 to Office 365 in the cloud. We have a defined timeline to do this. We gotta get all our people from Office 2016 or 2019

16:16 - 16:41
Christian Napier: to Office 365 that's in the cloud. Yep. So we put together a project to do this and this project has defined start and end dates and oftentimes those start and end dates are coupled with budgets. You know I work in government so we have regulations that say okay funding's available for this until the end of fiscal year 2025 or 2026. You gotta be done by then.

16:42 - 16:44
Spencer Horn: So that's your time constraint. That's my time constraint.

16:45 - 17:04
Christian Napier: I have to have project management to do this because product management doesn't help. Product management says, okay, I'm going to roll out features when they're ready. Project management says, I got to get this thing done by this certain day. But I'm sorry,

17:04 - 17:33
Spencer Horn: but I'm gonna, I'm gonna push back a little bit there because I, you hit on something that is so valuable for this, this number 1 tech skill. And if it was anything, it's how do you understand truly what the customer wants? And what the customer may be wanting is a feature, but by a deadline. So why wouldn't you be able to have those features with the time constraint as well in product management.

17:37 - 18:18
Christian Napier: So product management then translates into project management in today's world, mostly through agile methods, agile or safe. And I'll say for enterprises, it's more a scaled agile framework or safe. The way they do that is you create an agile release train in ART, which is then broken into quarterly program increments. And so you have quarterly planning to say okay we got this set of features that we are going to deliver this quarter right but here's what happens stuff happens and so sometimes you don't deliver all the features that you were supposed to deliver in the quarter.

18:20 - 18:58
Christian Napier: In an agile or a safe approach, it's based on the concept that you really cannot predict deadlines. It doesn't make sense to set these because things change over time and things interfere. So what is the point? You know there's no point in setting deadlines that we're probably not going to make anyway. So they just don't. So because they don't, it's very easy to say, OK, well, we're going to we didn't get all the features done. Maybe we got 80% of the features done. So we're going to push the 20% to the next PI planning session and

18:58 - 19:20
Christian Napier: the next program increment. And so you just get more and more delays on features being released And a project manager is saying but I have to have this done You know the the client is saying we have to have this done by the 31st of December or by the end of March or whatever and so

19:20 - 19:22
Spencer Horn: you end up with some tensions. So,

19:22 - 19:32
Christian Napier: you've just described why it's inside and the project management side because product management will get it released when we get it and the project and the project management side but I need it by this

19:32 - 20:13
Spencer Horn: time for- I like to see it fired up about this, but you've just described why 65% of projects don't meet their goals. 43% are not completed within the budget. 48% are not on time. And another number, 70% of digital transformation projects fails to achieve their outcomes. And so a lot of this is happening. And so I believe that going back to that 1 tech skill, what is it? You know, 1 of the things he says is understanding the customer needs. What do you think it takes to truly understand the cause and effect of what a customer

20:13 - 20:56
Spencer Horn: is experiencing to provide a solution that solves a problem? Is it coding skill? Is it how to do ones and zeros? Or is it something else? Like This is going to sound really radical. Empathy. I want you to think, if you're listening, let's just talk for a minute, because we only have about 15 minutes to kind of get to the point here. I want you to think in a rapidly evolving tech landscape where AI and automation are taking over many traditional roles. So the ability to empathize has emerged as 1 of the critical skills for tech

20:56 - 21:35
Spencer Horn: professionals. Here's why. Understanding user needs. Empathy allows tech professionals to truly understand and anticipate needs, pains, desires of their users. And that goes beyond surface level data to grasp deeper emotional and psychological aspects that drive their user behavior. And that's getting to the core of what the customer wants, even if they can't articulate it. So by putting themselves in the user's shoes, tech developers and product managers, as you've described them, can create solutions that are not only functional, but also resonate on a personal level, enhancing user satisfaction and loyalty. What do you think about that?

21:35 - 22:06
Christian Napier: Yeah, I think empathy is the number 1. It's got to be the number 1 skill. You have to be able to put yourself in the other person's shoes and see things from their perspective. I would say that empathy needs to be the skill not just of the product manager Looking at the needs of the customer But the the product managers also need to have empathy for the project managers and the developers the engineers who are doing the work.

22:06 - 22:11
Spencer Horn: I do a hundred percent I a hundred percent agree with you keep going I mean yes you're because

22:11 - 23:11
Christian Napier: with you know it is the product managers job to have empathy for the customer and their needs. And the customer needs are always changing. That's 1 of the central tenets of product management and Agile by extension is that the needs change and those changes aren't necessarily predictable and we've got to be able to both Anticipate those changes and react to those changes as they come But this is it is difficult for project managers and engineers to deal with the constant ping ponging of requirements based on the evolving needs of the customers. So there needs to be

23:11 - 23:52
Christian Napier: empathy for both. I need to have empathy for the customer and what they need. And I also need to have empathy for the project management, what the, you know, the scrum masters and, you know, so the product manager, product owner has to have empathy, I think, for the scrum masters and the engineers and the testers and the people that are on that side of the business as well, to understand that it is not easy to operate in a very dynamic technology environment. And sometimes it's hard. It's demoralizing sometimes as an engineer working on something and then

23:52 - 24:31
Christian Napier: realize that it's never going to come to fruition because the needs of the customer has changed. And you think to yourself, shoot, I just spent weeks working on this thing. And, you know, in fact, we may not even need it. Or I'll give you a real world example, engineer building something, based on an AI tool set. So this is a, you know, a proof of concept, really promising. Then the vendor releases a product that basically does what the engineer built You know and then you and okay. Well, we're just gonna implement that then the engineer saying

24:31 - 24:51
Christian Napier: well shoot I just spent all this time and all this effort building out a solution that now the vendor is putting in their own product and there's no more need for what I just engineered. That has an impact on people and I think product managers need to be aware of that and they need to understand that.

25:05 - 25:36
Spencer Horn: As you were talking, it made me think that those are skills not unlike what is required for effective salespeople. Because not only do you just give the client what they need, sometimes they don't know what they need and you need to help them understand what it is that they're feeling so that they can get the proper solution. So those are very similar skill sets if that's making sense. But just think about what as it relates to our podcast theme, which is teamwork, Fostering innovation is required. And so empathy can help drive innovation by encouraging to kind

25:36 - 26:11
Spencer Horn: of tag on what you said, tech teams to think creatively about solving problems. And so when developers empathize with users, they're more likely to come up with unique and effect solutions that address real world issues. That's just what you were talking about. And so it opens up new perspectives and ideas, which can lead to breakthroughs that might not be possible through purely technical or data driven approaches. That's how you can really tie in empathy. Also improving team dynamics. So within each tech team, empathy is crucial for collaboration and communication. It helps the team members understand each

26:11 - 26:48
Spencer Horn: other's viewpoints. And I'm really summarizing what you said and understanding their viewpoints, their strengths, their challenges, and fostering more cohesion and a supportive working environment. And so you, if you're listening to this and you're a tech leader, empathetic leaders are gonna be able to motivate, you will be able to motivate your teams leading to higher engagement and productivity and morale. So you're going to be able to enhance your product management by really, again, relying on empathy as a product manager. You've got to balance those needs and expectations of the various stakeholders. And that includes the business

26:48 - 27:22
Spencer Horn: executives, not only just so we have to be able to and I think Christian this is something that a lot of project managers and project managers struggle at is self-advocating for the profession from to the business side, right? Because the business side is usually focused on time, on budget, on cost. So you've got to be able to self-advocate the value that you're bringing to the organization so that you can do what you talked about saying, listen, you know, your needs are gonna continue to evolve. And so therefore we need to have more of an open-ended tipping,

27:22 - 27:26
Spencer Horn: that top ticket. Am I making sense?

27:26 - 28:31
Christian Napier: You are. And Spencer, I wanna come back to something that you introduced me to years and years ago. So you do the ProScan assessment, right? Where you are assessing people's different communication styles and the way that they work and so on and so forth. I've been doing some work with an organization that places neurodivergent, talented individuals in the workplace. That's fun. So it's really, really fascinating. And as it turns out in the tech space, particularly in engineering, There is a pretty high percentage, you know, 25%, 20 to 30% of people who are neurodivergent, workers who are

28:31 - 29:08
Christian Napier: neurodivergent. We're all neurodiverse. But the reason I mention this and bring up your ProScan is in order to have empathy, you need to understand not only how you are, but how other people are and and how they communicate as you've taught me both at a steady state and also under pressure. I don't want to put all engineers in a box but there is a percentage of engineers that are in this, they are in this space because they would rather not talk with people. They would

29:09 - 29:12
Spencer Horn: work on screens. I hope that works out for you.

29:12 - 29:38
Christian Napier: People don't, you know, they, they, they, and, And so as a product manager to say, hey, put yourself in the customer's shoes, that is something that's not necessarily normal for them. And they might think to themselves, well, it works for me, it should work for them, you know, kind of thing. And it's a customer's grand where these folks are coming from.

29:38 - 30:11
Spencer Horn: They just want to work at home. They don't even want to interact with other humans. I just had this conversation with a CEO yesterday for 1 of his best people who wants to have more opportunity, but he couldn't even stand up and advocate for himself when the CEO is like, well, what do you want? What are you willing to do for that? Just couldn't speak. So when we're talking about the skills that are, you're gonna help you to survive in the future as a tech expert, you gotta get these skills down.

30:13 - 30:14
Christian Napier: Yeah, we've got to develop those

30:14 - 30:15
Spencer Horn: skills in our,

30:17 - 30:47
Christian Napier: on our teams and also as I as I said before the on the product management side of things we have to recognize that there may be certain people or even teams that behave a certain way and not be judgmental about it but just recognize it for what it is and help them. We can understand, okay, if I need to get done what I want done, then this is how I need to communicate with these people.

30:47 - 31:14
Spencer Horn: That's right. And it is not okay, Christian, to say, well, this is just the way I am, and these are my strengths. You must evolve. Just as the product has to evolve to meet the customer's needs, you have to evolve to be able to understand and connect with the users, with the teams you work with. Those, so when somebody says that, you know, platitudes like teamwork are blah and ug, you know what? You have to be able to, I

31:14 - 31:51
Christian Napier: don't care how neurodivergent you are, the challenges that you have, you can make an excuse for yourself and become extinct as a dinosaur. So let me just give you a real world example of why these soft skills are so important. Yes. Right? And why this empathy is so important if I'm a team leader and I'm running a meeting and I go around the room and I ask people for their input and 1 person never gives any input, You know my initial reaction will will this person doesn't want to add he doesn't want to contribute He doesn't

31:51 - 31:52
Christian Napier: have anything valuable to say

31:52 - 31:54
Spencer Horn: a lot of reasons why that happened

31:54 - 32:30
Christian Napier: a lot of reasons. So what happens? A person who is not empathetic will make assumptions, right? I'll make assumptions about behavior that I'm seeing and those assumptions may be incorrect. Yeah But if I take time to get to know these individuals and I realize well the reason that this person Doesn't speak up in the meeting is because this person needs time to process information. So if I can let them know ahead of time, okay, this is the agenda of the meeting, and I would like you to take 5 minutes and talk about this. Then I come

32:30 - 32:55
Christian Napier: prepared. How many times have you heard me say this very thing? Exactly, exactly. So this is, to me, this is the very, you know, it's boots on the ground use case of empathy. That's right. You know, it's taking time to get to know a person and say, okay, well, this is how they can, what can I do to help this person feel comfortable so I can get what I want? And it sounds like it's a selfish thing, but it's not really a selfish thing.

32:55 - 33:04
Spencer Horn: No, because you're actually helping them increase their value and speak up, which may not be comfortable, but you're giving, you're actually easing them into the ice bath

33:06 - 33:07
Christian Napier: there we go because

33:09 - 33:45
Spencer Horn: see you're easing them into the discomfort by helping them be prepared so that you lower the threshold of pain for them to speak up because that's really what it is. And so we do have to embrace that pain. But as an empathetic leader, you're going to understand that and help lower the threshold of resistance of your team to be able to work together. That takes an empathetic leader and understanding leader. And what will happen is that you'll get more insights, more collaboration, more innovation because you've primed the environment for everyone to be able to participate.

33:47 - 34:04
Christian Napier: That's right. I mean, we could go on for hours, Spencer, but we've got hard stops, so we're gonna have to, you know, kind of end it there, but before we conclude and wrap up, any other final thoughts that you wanna hit on.

34:04 - 34:40
Spencer Horn: You know, I hate when we try to oversimplify, you know, what is the number 1 tech skill. I don't want the listeners to think, I'm just saying that empathy is the only thing. That would be like saying you only need empathy as a doctor. No, as a surgeon, you must be a competent surgeon to have the right to be able to go in that room and operate and save somebody's life. But empathy allows you to connect with your staff, your nurses, with the patients, with the families, and make you that much better as an operator than

34:40 - 35:01
Spencer Horn: just a technician. You can be an incredible product manager, You can be an incredible coder, but to get to that next level that's gonna make you indispensable, add to those great skills. I'm not talking about that's all you need. We're not talking about or replacing, we're talking about adding to and complimenting.

35:03 - 35:28
Christian Napier: I agree. And my final words are just to emphasize that product management and project management are both essential for different reasons and 1 of the fundamental challenges specifically or particularly in large-scale enterprise environments is getting those 2 disciplines to play nice with each other. And which requires fundamental to

35:28 - 35:34
Spencer Horn: making that happen. Hey, we're gonna meet me. I'm gonna meet you for lunch in about an hour. In about an hour, yeah?

35:34 - 35:50
Christian Napier: That's right, I'm super excited, can't wait for it. Listeners and viewers, it was a pleasure to have you on here. If you want to connect with Spencer, learn more about the work that he's doing with organizations building high performing teams Spencer What's the best way for people to contact you

35:50 - 36:03
Spencer Horn: did contact me on LinkedIn Spencer horn see me there and Christian? Everyone is starting to now see your brilliance, and I'm so excited about that and today I like the passion Keep that up. How can they find you?

36:03 - 36:32
Christian Napier: LinkedIn as well. Just look up Christian Apier on LinkedIn. You'll find me there. Again listeners, viewers, Thank you.