Teamwork - A Better Way

Christian Napier
00:12 - 00:24
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Teamwork, A Better Way. I'm Christian Napier, and I am joined as always by my princely and purple pinstripes co-host, Spencer Horn. Spencer, how you doing? I am great.

Christian Napier
00:24 - 00:24
I

Spencer Horn
00:24 - 00:38
always love seeing the man in black, Christian. Good to see you. And gosh, not only are we on another podcast Friday, but I got to see you live and a couple of other friends at our favorite restaurant

Christian Napier
00:38 - 00:38
on

Spencer Horn
00:38 - 00:40
Friday. That was so fantastic.

Christian Napier
00:41 - 00:49
It was awesome. The food was delicious. And more importantly, I proved to you once again that I'm just not generated by AI, but I am a real human being.

Spencer Horn
00:52 - 00:56
Yeah, well, I know that. We just want to make sure our listeners know that.

Christian Napier
00:58 - 01:12
Well, it was great to see you on Friday and enjoy that delicious mole, but I'm really even more excited for our guest today. He's amazing. So why don't you go ahead and Give him the introduction he deserves. Absolutely.

Christian Napier
01:12 - 01:12
Today we

Spencer Horn
01:13 - 01:31
have Kyle McDowell and former Fortune 10 executive turned inspirational speaker, bestselling author and leadership coach. And Kyle is on a quest to create cultures of excellence around the world by reigniting leaders passion and purpose with nearly three decades. Don't look at old Kyle. Come on.

Christian Napier
01:31 - 01:31
You don't

Spencer Horn
01:31 - 01:52
have three decades of experience. That's my end of the age scale. Leading tens of thousands of employees in some of America's biggest firms and his philosophy is rooted in the trademark principles of what's called the 10 Whys, which I'm excited to learn all about. And you know what, Kyle, there's so much more to this profile.

Spencer Horn
01:52 - 02:01
I'm going to share a little bit more of it. But you and I spoke and there's so much uncertainty. There's so much dysfunction. There's so much frustration in the workplace.

Spencer Horn
02:01 - 02:15
And we were talking about the name of our podcast, Teamwork, A Better Way. And that kind of, I don't know if that's what led you to say, you know, is there a better way? Or did you ask that before? Because that's going to lead into my first question.

Spencer Horn
02:15 - 02:29
But he has seen Christian so much dysfunction. And as you see, it's really the norm today with disengagement. And he's just had this incredibly successful corporate run. Really, he's really working on making massive change.

Spencer Horn
02:29 - 02:52
Because of that, he's been in high, high demand as a speaker. His Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestseller, Begin With We, is really out there exploring the root causes, which I can't wait to hear about this. What are the root causes of this dysfunction? And really, he's speaking at all kinds of prestigious places.

Spencer Horn
02:52 - 02:59
And now one of the most prestigious places you could ever speak is on the Teamwork a Better Way podcast. Kyle, welcome.

Kyle McDowell
03:00 - 03:12
Hey, man. Great to be here. But I have to say, fellas, that music at the intro, if that doesn't get your heart racing and wake you up and get you going, nothing will. Yeah, no, I'm fired up.

Kyle McDowell
03:12 - 03:14
I'm thrilled to be here, man. Thank you for the intro, too.

Spencer Horn
03:14 - 03:43
Thank you, Kyle. So, you know, as I said, when you and I were talking, I'm just so curious why, in my experience, only 10% of teams based on over 25 years of research with the company that I'm associated with are high performing. And there's been so much data independent of that that's come out that says that number may even be high. Why are so few teams having high levels of engagement and low levels of dysfunction?

Spencer Horn
03:43 - 04:02
When there's a lot of smart people leading these companies that you've been associated with, why is it in our statement that when we were talking about the content for today's topic, we say that your question, is there a better way as a bold question? Why is that even a bold question in today's corporate America?

Kyle McDowell
04:03 - 04:22
You know, Spencer, that question, that very question changed my life. And that is no exaggeration. So I guess for some context, so I spent about 30 years in corporate America, right out of high school, paved my way through my undergrad and then ultimately business school. But so that 30-year number is real.

Kyle McDowell
04:23 - 04:44
Had a lot more hair when I first started versus now, but I guess such is life. And I also, in that 30 years, I led really massive organizations. For some context, in my last 2 roles, I led collectively about 30,000 employees. Massive, massive footprint, really big, purpose-driven, impact-driven work.

Kyle McDowell
04:46 - 05:05
But I will tell you, man, the first 20 of those 30 years, there was a very different paradigm in my lead, in my approach to my leadership than I stumbled upon in the last 10 years. In that first 20 years, you know, I was essentially a product of what I observed. Let's, let's bang our fist on the desk. Let's raise our voice.

Kyle McDowell
05:05 - 05:13
You know, results at all costs. Doesn't really matter how we get there. Let's just get there. And, you know, by most accounts, I had a pretty successful run at it.

Kyle McDowell
05:13 - 05:35
I had these cool corner offices, the fancy titles. But I also had a tremendous amount of apathy. And I don't think that's unusual, especially if you've kind of traversed the corporate landscape. The only thing that kind of matched my, the level of responsibility I was asked to take on was my level of apathy, oh, by the way, along with my ego.

Kyle McDowell
05:37 - 05:51
I became so disconnected from the workforce. I became so kind of disenfranchised. which is a real gut punch when your, when, when your apathy is toward the very environments that you created. So I was responsible for, for the environment that I was not a fan of any longer.

Kyle McDowell
05:52 - 06:03
And I just started to replay that very question, man, over and over again, Is there a better way? And that better way led me to something that is not new. It's, it's, I didn't create it. It's called Principle-Based Leadership.

Kyle McDowell
06:03 - 06:21
And I think that is the foundation, right, at the, I think, ultimately, that's the root cause of why teams are either very, very successful or or they're not. And essentially, principle-based leadership just requires the leader to say, Here are the standards. Here are the things that we will measure ourselves by. Here, here is our system of truths.

Kyle McDowell
06:22 - 06:31
And it's a very explicit list. For me, it's a very explicit list of standards. Their principles called the 10 Whys. And I found my answer to that, Is there a better way?

Kyle McDowell
06:31 - 06:38
The answer is yes. But it starts with establishing our principles. What do we stand for? And can we get a team of people aligned around those principles?

Kyle McDowell
06:39 - 07:02
and move forward. What happens, I think, 99 out of 100 times, when an organization welcomes a new hire, an employee into the, into the fold, we go through this rigorous onboarding process. There's, there's training, there's, you know, they get really intimate with the PMPs and the SOPs. But most organizations, nearly all, fail to establish those expectations for how we do the work.

Kyle McDowell
07:03 - 07:16
Not what we're doing, not the Xs and Os, but how we behave, how we interact with one another, the standards that we set for ourselves, how we hold each other accountable. as well as what the leader's responsibility is. But that's the question.

Spencer Horn
07:16 - 07:23
If there's so many smart leaders out there, why aren't more of them taking that approach? To me, that's the mystery.

Kyle McDowell
07:24 - 07:30
Because it's not a mystery to me, man, at least in my experience. Here's what happens. Yes, that's what I want to hear. Yes.

Kyle McDowell
07:30 - 07:42
So Spencer, let's pretend you and I are on a team of 10, right? We're on the same team. And the boss who we report to, you and I, we're not big fans of him. Let's just say we kind of loathe the characteristics he brings to the table as a leader.

Kyle McDowell
07:43 - 07:51
Lo and behold, he gets promoted though. And you and I, we're go-getters, right? We want to take on more, we want to do more, we want to grow, want to make a little more money. You and I raise our hand.

Kyle McDowell
07:51 - 08:08
We say, Hey, I want that job. We go through this interview process, and inherently, we start to take on the characteristics and traits of our former boss, the person who is now responsible for hiring his own backfill. We take on those characteristics and the traits that we loathed in that person. Why?

Kyle McDowell
08:08 - 08:26
Because we want to endear ourselves to that person. And so this cycle repeats. The person who can almost always mirror the behavior of the boss or the person making the hiring decision, the more likely you are to get that role. So the cycle repeats, and you, you continue to behave in those ways until someone just says, Hey, wait, hang on.

Kyle McDowell
08:27 - 08:45
Is there a better way? And how am I going to behave and lead in a way that is better? So I think this cycle, and it's, it's what worked for me, by the way, in those first 20 years, every opportunity I had, I took on bad characteristics from leaders that I wouldn't even say that I respected. I knew the way to get to where I wanted to go professionally.

Spencer Horn
08:45 - 09:00
Oh, I so agree with you, Kyle. When I talk about this idea, when it comes to getting a promotion, there's two approaches, I think. I mean, this is an oversimplification, but there's an earning style and then there's a winning style. The earning style just puts their head down, hope they get noticed.

Spencer Horn
09:00 - 09:20
But people who are a little more aggressive, and that's usually what's promoted or rewarded in many corporate environments, is that winning style. Here's why I deserve it. Pick me, pick me, as you said. And then we want to model those perceived as winning characteristics.

Spencer Horn
09:21 - 09:34
The corporate workplace oftentimes rewards some of the worst actors. But they're aggressive. They're the ones that are getting after it. And I think it's a mistake.

Spencer Horn
09:34 - 09:34
I kind

Kyle McDowell
09:35 - 09:46
I know it's a mistake. It sends all kinds of bad messages to that group that does keep their head down and it just works hard to be recognized, right? It says that we reward this bombastic, even toxic behavior. Right.

Christian Napier
09:48 - 10:14
Well, this is really interesting. I'm super curious about this topic, but before we get into the framework that you created, slash adapted, slash evolved, I'm a little bit interested in the journey that you took because You found yourself in a position where you didn't feel like you were satisfied. And you mentioned the word apathy, right? You were apathetic towards it.

Christian Napier
10:15 - 10:32
People can go in a lot of different directions. I can quit my job and become a chef. I had a former boss who got really into racing and basically retired and started racing vintage cars. You can figure out all different kinds of things to do.

Christian Napier
10:32 - 10:48
So I'm curious why you chose the path that you chose. you know, when you achieve what you've achieved, you know, at that particular time in your career, you had a lot of different options. You could probably do a lot of different things. Why settle on this one, right?

Christian Napier
10:49 - 10:56
I wanna find a better way to do this thing that I'm doing, and I'm gonna change my leadership instead of saying, I'm gonna go open a restaurant.

Kyle McDowell
10:58 - 11:23
Yeah, so for me, it was, as I mentioned, probably about 20 years in, And there were signs. There were signs in addition to just dreading going to work, in addition to the Sunday scaries that became so palpable that I would need to medicate from time to time. I was on the doorstep of a divorce that ultimately came to be. My health was not where it needed to be.

Kyle McDowell
11:23 - 11:36
I was not nearly in the type of condition that I should have been. And it was all wearing on me. Now, I had reached the point in my career where And I don't want to come across naive. I was very fortunate.

Kyle McDowell
11:36 - 11:45
I was at a place where I could step away from the corporate landscape. Not indefinitely. I wasn't, I wasn't in a position to retire. But I knew I could, I had a couple bucks in the bank.

Kyle McDowell
11:46 - 12:02
I could sit on the sideline for a month or two, determine, you know, what was going to be my next gig. I just knew that I was so unfulfilled. And let me be clear, I think nearly every person enters the workforce with this really burning desire to make an impact. We want to find fulfillment.

Kyle McDowell
12:02 - 12:11
We want to do big things. I think we all enter the workforce that way. I think it's very common for us to lose touch with those emotions and those wants and those feelings. And I was no different.

Kyle McDowell
12:11 - 12:29
I just did not have that level of energy any longer, or care, for that matter. So when I made the decision to step away, I made a promise to myself that I was not going to go back into the same scenario, right? I had this recipe, like I knew how to make things work. I knew how to be, quote, unquote, successful.

Kyle McDowell
12:31 - 12:50
But I'd sensed that there had to be a better way to find more connection and have a really lasting impact longer than my tenure. Well, be careful what you wish for. Because about 10 days out of that stepping away, I got a phone call asking if I'd be open to leading a group of about 15,000 people. It was a $7 billion program.

Kyle McDowell
12:50 - 13:11
I went through the interview process, and it was, it was pretty obvious to me there was A, an opportunity for cultural transformation, not just an opportunity, but a real need. And B, I was gonna be able to drive the car in a way that would allow me to really put my stamp on things. The only problem was, I didn't know what I was going to do. I didn't know what my approach would be.

Kyle McDowell
13:11 - 13:20
I knew, I knew what to do in days past, years past. The old Kyle knew how to get things done. But this was an entirely different animal. And it was a real gut-check moment.

Kyle McDowell
13:20 - 13:50
So I took the role. About 60 days into the role, I commissioned the top 40 or 50 leaders of this massive organization into one place because I wanted to use that as an opportunity for me to put you know, my expectations of them out there. But I also, I wanted to be really explicit in the expectations I wanted them to have of me, which was a little bit of a departure from my, from my, my previous approach to leadership. But the night before I was to go on stage and meet with these folks the next day, I was terrified, fellas.

Kyle McDowell
13:50 - 13:56
I really was terrified. I didn't, cause it was a massive change for me. And this, is there a better way? I kept playing through my head.

Kyle McDowell
13:56 - 14:04
So it's about midnight the night before I'm in my hotel room. I've got my laptop open. I'm like, I got to put a few slides together. I can't just wing this entirely.

Kyle McDowell
14:04 - 14:18
And that's when this epiphany happened. And I do refer to it as an epiphany because that evening and what happened over the course of the next couple hours changed my life. led me to write my USA Today and Wall Street Journal bestseller. It's, it's opened doors for me that I never imagined.

Kyle McDowell
14:18 - 14:44
But the process that evening was very simple. Kyle, think through the scenarios that left you feeling less than fulfilled, left you feeling like, not valued, like you were just kind of a cog in a machine. And then I started to identify behaviors that led, led me feeling that way. In addition, I flipped the coin over and I said, OK, how about a couple of bosses throughout your career that inspired you?

Kyle McDowell
14:44 - 14:57
Because I've had those as well. And as I'm typing, I, after maybe an hour and a half, 2 hours, I have these 10 sentences, and they each begin with the word, We. And I wrote them in a way that was like, OK, here's who we are. Here's what we're gonna be known for.

Kyle McDowell
14:58 - 15:10
We do the right thing. We lead by example. Very, very simple, very simple kind of premises. But I'd never asked or been asked directly to say, Hey, are you going to be a part of a team that says, We own our mistakes?

Kyle McDowell
15:11 - 15:21
I didn't want to be ambiguous. I needed to be very clear with this team. The next morning, I shared the principles with them. Fast forward several years later, those principles have left an indelible mark on that firm.

Kyle McDowell
15:22 - 15:36
They still have the 10 WEs as part of their performance appraisals, their signage around still. And frankly, that was the group that inspired me to write the book that set me on the mission that I'm on now. Because the answer to that question, Is there a better way? is undoubtedly yes.

Spencer Horn
15:40 - 16:03
Wow. Sorry, I was so engrossed in that story, I fumbled there for a little bit. I love, love that story and I love that you actually had the opportunity to drive the car as you described it in that company. I've had lots of discussions with my son-in-law, just a brilliant kid, high performer.

Spencer Horn
16:04 - 16:43
When I say top of his class, Harvard MBA and undergraduate, I mean Baker Scholar, just unbelievable, brilliant kid, worked in investment banking, worked for Bain on the investment side and then on the consulting side. And in those environments, the partners expect those kids to work for about two years because they're going to burn you out for 80 to 100 hour work weeks. And his brother did the same thing at Goldman. So you've got these major organizations where they come in and they take these bright kids out of college that they're all excited to make a difference like you talked about.

Spencer Horn
16:44 - 17:00
And they last for about two to three years. And then they go and leave to run their own companies because they're so burned out. And his values were family. He had like three kids while he's going to MBA school and then going out and working for Bain.

Spencer Horn
17:00 - 17:28
And he would come home with taxi that he would book and sleep for about three hours, go back to the office. and just miserable. Health impacted just like you. So my question is how do we get these major organizations, you had the chance to do it with a $7 billion company, to see that there is a better way and get out of this rut that they're in that so many people are getting burned out and frustrated

Spencer Horn
17:28 - 17:41
and low engagement. You're on this mission, but how's it going? I mean, how is it received when you come in and say, hey, I got these 10 wheeze, how is it received? Do they say you're full of crap or they're like, hey, we need you?

Kyle McDowell
17:44 - 18:02
Spencer, the answer is yes. It's very consistent, actually. The percentages of the different types of reaction I get. So the first time I ever shared the principles to 10 wheeze, it kind of broke out into this, these 3 categories.

Kyle McDowell
18:02 - 18:09
50%, actually 4 categories, no, 3, 3 categories. 50% Man, this is great. I'm optimistic. I'm excited.

Kyle McDowell
18:09 - 18:19
I'm on board. Let's go. There was a quarter of the group that was like, We'll see. OK, man, if this works, I'd be excited.

Kyle McDowell
18:19 - 18:31
We'll see. And then there was the He is full of it group. The obstinate group that just said, this guy's a fraud. One of the guys, by the way, who I ultimately became great friends with was in the audience that morning.

Kyle McDowell
18:31 - 18:45
He asked me for my PowerPoint. He said, because I really dig this stuff, Kyle. I want to share it with my team. Well, as we got to know each other deeper into my tenure there, he admitted that he only wanted the PowerPoint because he thought I plagiarized and stole the concepts.

Kyle McDowell
18:45 - 19:10
And he wanted to check the properties to see if I was the creator of that deck. So there was a fair amount of obstinance in a quarter of the group. And that seems to be more or less the, the reaction I get inside of organizations where I, where I kind of either partner with them from a coaching perspective or do a keynote. But I'm not naive, because I get it.

Kyle McDowell
19:10 - 19:42
If I'm, if I was presented my book earlier in my career, I probably would have had a similar reaction of, Eh, I don't know about this guy. What changes, what makes the change is, I mean, it's great to have these concepts, right, but I actually try to sometimes contrast them to mission statements or corporate values, which more often than not, are just words on a wall that nobody can recite, and it doesn't compel anybody to behave any differently, work any harder, more collaboratively, more team-focused. And I did not want to be associated with that.

Kyle McDowell
19:42 - 20:02
So these principles are behaviors, they're actions, they're, they're quantifiable, they're observable. But once you establish them, nothing else matters more than the person who had, who has established them living them. And that was me. And that was a departure from years past as well.

Kyle McDowell
20:02 - 20:31
And I think ultimately, that's at the crux of why so many bosses stay in boss land and never, never advance to be, becoming an impactful leader, is because they're focused on they stay maniacally focused on the results and less focused on the people who are responsible for delivering the results. And that one subtle shift with, with, with an overt focus on, watch me live my own standards and hold me accountable when I err. And I'll be open to that.

Kyle McDowell
20:32 - 20:59
which is, which requires the boss to put him or herself in a place of vulnerability that they're probably not, not very comfortable with. It forces you to set aside your ego because you can no longer have the loudest voice, be the smartest person, have the most influence in the room, because we're going to be we-oriented. That means we all of the time. So when we establish the principles and we're conspicuous about them, and then most importantly, we live them over and over and over again and recognize others when they start to adopt and live them as well.

Kyle McDowell
21:00 - 21:12
This momentum is created. And that's what I was seeing in individual companies with whom I would partner. But now I'm seeing it on a more kind of macro scale, for some context. When I wrote the book, my hope was to sell 1,000 copies.

Kyle McDowell
21:12 - 21:25
I figured if I know enough people on this planet, maybe 1,000 people will pick this book up. We're selling 1,000 a week now. and we've reached sales numbers that I just never dreamt of. And it's not, I don't share that from a vanity perspective.

Kyle McDowell
21:25 - 21:34
I share that because it tells me that there is a hunger for this approach. And a lot of people are asking that question. Is there a better way? Oh no.

Christian Napier
21:36 - 21:38
Spencer's trying to push buttons in there.

Spencer Horn
21:39 - 21:41
You got your

Christian Napier
21:41 - 21:42
digital twin up here,

Spencer Horn
21:42 - 21:46
Spencer. We'll fix that

Christian Napier
21:46 - 22:18
in a second here. Hey, I wanna follow up on this, Kyle, because, you know, I was recently in a leadership training session when they were talking about engagement and the person who was presenting said, oh, you know, about a third of our employees are engaged and about half of them are, they're just, They're doing their job, right? They're doing their job, but they're like super really high engaged.

Christian Napier
22:18 - 22:37
And then there's about 17% who are disengaged or actively hostile, right? And you kind of gave a breakdown of similar, like, okay, we got 50, 25, 25 or whatever. And some of those skeptics, you know, they've been around for a long time. You know, they've seen regimes come and go.

Christian Napier
22:37 - 23:17
They're like, ah, it's just another dude, you know? And so my question to you is how you, what's the process that you go through to win over the skeptics? And sometimes do we put too much, energy and attention into trying to win those over versus focusing on the other majority of people who will get off board. Because sometimes you can say, well, this small percentage of people who are the rabble rousers You know, we're just gonna put in processes to weed these people out and get better people in.

Christian Napier
23:17 - 23:31
What was your thought process kind of going in and dealing with these different kinds of groups of people, the people who really were enthusiastic, the people that were just kind of like, okay, you know, whatever, we got a new guy here. And then the other group that was just like, this guy's full of garbage.

Kyle McDowell
23:33 - 23:45
Yeah. You're never gonna, you will never get a hundred percent on board. I think we can all agree to that. You asked, you asked a question within the question that I think is really important.

Kyle McDowell
23:45 - 24:10
And that is, How do you decide how much energy to put into the obstinate cohort versus those that are early adopters? And I want to share a really brief story to highlight why not giving up on the obstinance is really, really important. Now, The why is, is, is a really important to ask, a really important question to ask when we're talking about obstinate people. Why are they behaving that way?

Kyle McDowell
24:10 - 24:26
More often than not, they behave that way because they've been burned. Right? The last new guy or gal came in, got them all excited, but never lived up to their own expectations. Never, never, never held themselves to the same level of accountability that they said they were going to.

Kyle McDowell
24:27 - 24:53
So when I introduced these principles, in that 25% cohort of the obstinate folks, there was a woman who was incredibly difficult with me. at every term, at every term, in public settings, staff meetings, bigger group meetings, bigger sessions. My favorite example of her being difficult with me was I was new to the team, and I said, Hey, Julia, can you please pass me this Excel workbook? Because I want to check the references.

Kyle McDowell
24:53 - 25:03
I was trying to learn. I wanted to see how this formula affected that, right, just trying to get smarter. She sent me a screenshot. It's not helpful at all.

Kyle McDowell
25:03 - 25:18
If you've ever worked in Excel, you know a screenshot is not going to help you. So I was a little frustrated, but I very politely replied, Hey, hey, Julia, could you, could you send me the whole workbook? Cause I want to, I want to see how the tabs in each sheet interacts with one another. No problem.

Kyle McDowell
25:18 - 25:26
I get an email with an Excel. It's got one tab in it now. Didn't have the other tabs. So at this point I was ready to bang my fist on the desk.

Kyle McDowell
25:26 - 25:42
I was ready to, to be the boss that I had been for so long, but was trying to get away from and. I should point out that 2 of the principles are really kind of relevant to this story. Number 8 is we challenge each other. And number 9 is we embrace challenge.

Kyle McDowell
25:44 - 26:09
For whatever reason, At that point in my journey, I recognized Julia was challenging me, not because of me, but because she had been burned. And she wanted to see, even if subliminally or without her knowing, she wanted to see if I was the guy that was going to take my own medicine and embrace the challenge. Fast forward, that was 2017. What are we in, 25?

Kyle McDowell
26:09 - 26:29
Eight years later, I haven't worked with Julia in four or five. we had a one-on-one this morning. And I shared that story, and I used her name freely, and she knows I tell this story, because she would tell you she was no fan of Kyle's early on. But now she is one of my most trusted professional Confidantes.

Kyle McDowell
26:29 - 26:41
She's a great friend of mine. We bounce each other's career moves off of one another. She helped me name the book. And I was, at least had the wherewithal to recognize the why with her.

Kyle McDowell
26:42 - 26:54
The fellow that had the role before me was, was let go. And I believe the woman before him might have been as well. So she had seen the Kyles come and go and make promises and invariably disappoint her and not keep them. So the why matters a lot.

Kyle McDowell
26:55 - 27:05
You have to make that decision. If you're trying to drive transformation, you have to make the decision. Is the person who's being obstinate just by nature a saboteur. And they've just, they can't be saved.

Kyle McDowell
27:05 - 27:28
They have no desire to meet you halfway or even at all. And those are the ones that I think you just got to turn, turn a cheek to and focus on the others. But in the, in, but when you can find those Julias, that woman would run through a wall for me because she knows I would for her as well. And we never would have gotten to that point if I didn't put my ego aside and be a little, be a little understanding of why someone's behaving the way they were behaving.

Kyle McDowell
27:28 - 27:38
And, and we were, we just, I think we both look back at that moment and those moments collectively, you know, collectively and say, what a shame it would have been if we didn't work our way through that.

Spencer Horn
27:47 - 28:04
I love that story. And, and, But it sounded like to me, though, that you were at first, you weren't sure of her intentions. Maybe you guessed at them, but you were like, I've got to stay true to this value if I'm going to do this thing. And I love that integrity.

Spencer Horn
28:04 - 28:35
And you know, one of the things that this highlights for me is, you know, you were early talking on one of the first Wee's you talked about is The fact that we do this collectively and that the leader doesn't have to necessarily be the smartest person and needs to be vulnerable. I had a great example, and I've talked about him on this show, Kelvin Cullimore, out of college, one of the best mentors I've ever had in my life. And he was somebody that had incredibly high standards, but you wanted to work for this man.

Spencer Horn
28:35 - 29:00
And I interviewed him for my book here earlier this year, and I said, tell me your leadership philosophy. He said, I believe that The divinity of the human soul is paramount. So he valued people so much that he cared about them, he treated them, yet he had these high standards. So it's not that when we start implementing these ideas like the ten wheeze that you're talking about that we're going to give up.

Spencer Horn
29:01 - 29:15
you know, control for productivity and high standards. You can have both because I love what you said these other two are. We challenge each other and we accept challenges, right? I mean, that's what high-performing teams do.

Spencer Horn
29:16 - 29:27
When you have a trust on the team and somebody doesn't follow through, there's not a defensiveness when you call it out. It's like, you're right. Hey, You know, you didn't set that pick, Christian. And so we didn't score.

Spencer Horn
29:27 - 29:40
It's like, you know, you're right, I'll do a better job next time. But you have that vulnerability and that willingness to accept feedback and challenge on the team. It's magic. You know, and-

Kyle McDowell
29:40 - 30:02
Well, I thought it was important to have an element of challenge in these principles because let's face it, historically challenge always come from the boss. Right. But, but mathematically, if they're a team of 10, mathematically, it's impossible for that one human being to recognize and issue the appropriate challenges to get the best out of all 10 team members. Like we see it in sports.

Kyle McDowell
30:02 - 30:17
That's why there are assistant coaches and position coaches and coordinators, right? We must have challenge come from within, peer-to-peer. especially team member to leader, which terrifies a lot of bosses. But that is where trust is found.

Christian Napier
30:17 - 30:17
That

Kyle McDowell
30:18 - 30:28
is where connections are made. We have each other's back, and we have standards that we hold each other accountable. If I can challenge you, It needs to work the opposite direction as well. But don't

Spencer Horn
30:28 - 30:40
people on that team want to matter just as much? Don't they want to have the ability to contribute and to shape and mold that team if they're really engaged? I mean, if they are engaged by definition, there's going to be a challenge from

Kyle McDowell
30:41 - 30:44
them. Yeah, brother. Preach. I boil it down.

Kyle McDowell
30:44 - 30:52
It's so simple to me. I look at it from this perspective. ABCs. Every human being on the planet, and especially once they enter the workplace, they want to add value.

Kyle McDowell
30:52 - 31:09
A, we want to add value. The B is, we want to be valued. We want to be recognized for the value we've created, our contribution. And in the scenarios where you're really lucky, we can connect the value that we've brought to those that ultimately benefit from it, whether it's a consumer, maybe it's an internal department.

Kyle McDowell
31:09 - 31:12
Those

Spencer Horn
31:12 - 31:23
two things you just said are one of the hugest reasons why people love their work, if they have that opportunity. And one more, that they actually are challenged a little bit above what they're able to contribute.

Christian Napier
31:24 - 31:24
In other words,

Spencer Horn
31:24 - 31:33
they're growing. So think about individual J-curves, right? You get to the top of, hey, I know what I'm doing. Then they start to lose disengagement.

Spencer Horn
31:33 - 31:43
They become bored. But if you challenge them to learn and to grow, meaning giving them more opportunity, that creates more excitement and engagement. Sorry, I'm preaching. Christian, I know you've got a question.

Spencer Horn
31:43 - 31:43
I'll shut up.

Christian Napier
31:45 - 31:55
Yeah, I want to get into the wheeze. Me too. The 10 wheeze. And I'll come at it through the angle of the story that you just shared with us, Kyle.

Christian Napier
31:56 - 32:19
In that story, you mentioned something that we all know happens. A new leader comes in, promises are made, promises are not kept. And so my question is, why does that happen? I genuinely believe that most leaders, when they come in, they are pretty optimistic.

Christian Napier
32:19 - 32:33
They do feel like they can make a change. They have a fair amount of confidence. They present their plan after study. But in many cases, they're unable to follow through for whatever reason.

Christian Napier
32:33 - 32:49
And I'm curious how those reasons for the lack of being able to follow through and keep those commitments or hold up those ideals, how those then are reflected in the 10 we's.

Kyle McDowell
32:51 - 33:21
So let's remember, the premise that I wanted to establish that evening when I created the principles, and, and there ever since, is largely driven on establishing a level playing field where there's no leadership gap, where the, the boss has the same level of expectations and is accountable, just the way the employee in the team, the team is. Where, where that breaks, in the scenario you're describing, it's really pretty simple. It's like, As the boss, if I tell you, I'll get back to you about that training you asked for.

Kyle McDowell
33:21 - 33:35
You said, you came to me the other day and said, Hey, Kyle, man, if you could, if you could find a course or some type of training to help on my Excel skills, I think I could be so much better in this role. And I say, You got it. You got it, Christian. I'm going to go look into this and I'll get back to you.

Kyle McDowell
33:36 - 33:53
The repercussions of me not following up, there are none. other than my intent, my brand, other than how you trust and respect me. Massive, massive fallout, right? The flip side of that, if I, if I go to you and I say, Christian, your Excel skills are not where they need to be, but I get it, man.

Kyle McDowell
33:53 - 34:05
And I'm invested in you. I want you to get better. How about you go find an Excel class and I'll get it funded. Or you make a mistake on an Excel-related project that you're working on.

Kyle McDowell
34:06 - 34:30
The repercussions of that mistake are real. It's that one-way paradigm that says, what's good for you is not good for me, and this leadership gap, and that's where there is, that's where trust is, if it was ever established, it erodes. So if that is the walking in premise of what I'm trying to eradicate, there has to be a standard in there. And there is.

Kyle McDowell
34:30 - 34:51
So we know, there's a we now that says, we say what we're going to do, and then we do it. And if the premise of this entire list of principles is, I must hold myself accountable and you as well to me, kind of adhering to these behaviors and vice versa, we're all in this together. We all have the same set of standards. These are our foundational truths.

Kyle McDowell
34:51 - 35:00
These are who we are. And I say to you, we say what we're going to do, and then we do it. I'm either a hypocrite, or I'm a man of my word. And it's up to me.

Kyle McDowell
35:01 - 35:26
And it's up to me. But I cannot expect you to make your commitments and keep them to those we serve externally. And probably, I think, even more important, keeping our commitments to our teammates and those that are behind the curtain, which we've all been a victim of those commitments not being met, and this domino effect happens. I just happen to believe if we're going to, if, as your leader, I expect things out of you, you have an obligation to expect those out of me.

Kyle McDowell
35:27 - 35:48
And when we say we're going to do something, and we do it, and it's one of our fundamental principles, it's our truth, it's easy to say, Hang on a second, Christian. It's easier for you, rather, in the scenario I mentioned earlier, you come back and say, Kyle, hey, remember, we say we're going to do, and then we do it, right? Because I've already, I'm the guy evangelizing these principles. And I say, Yeah, yeah, Christian, that's right.

Kyle McDowell
35:48 - 35:57
And you said, Well, you were going to get back to me on this training. And I'm sure you're busy, something came up, whatever. But I want to, I want to point it out that it's an obligation or a commitment that you made. Can we, can we get that going again?

Kyle McDowell
35:58 - 36:07
And then again, the ego must be set aside, be a little bit vulnerable to say, I blew it. There's another we that says we own our mistakes. I blew it, Christian. I'm sorry, man.

Kyle McDowell
36:07 - 36:19
Let me get back on that and then give it high priority and circle back to you. But there can't be, there can't be disparate expectations in how we follow up, how we treat one another and our behaviors. And that's what these principles aim to do is set that standard.

Spencer Horn
36:33 - 36:47
And I love that that's one of the wheeze. And I want you to, if you can, maybe just summarize them all. Cause we're kind of getting bits and pieces of them here that we are going to make mistakes. And, and, uh, I like that, uh, that you make allowance for that.

Spencer Horn
36:47 - 37:01
I think that's really important. So you had this epiphany, I mean, or you were, you were preparing for this, this presentation, by the way, how did it go when you actually did the slide deck for this, uh, for this new position that you took?

Kyle McDowell
37:02 - 37:06
I was terrified. I was terrified. They didn't know it. They do now.

Kyle McDowell
37:08 - 37:09
And as I mentioned. Cause this is a

Spencer Horn
37:09 - 37:15
whole new thing. You're like, am I an imposter here? Is it going to work? I mean, I can imagine all those things going on in your head.

Spencer Horn
37:15 - 37:15
A

Kyle McDowell
37:16 - 37:31
hundred percent. Yeah. Listen, I'm not proud of it, but I, I led with a bit of an iron fist and behind that iron fist was a pretty good sized ego. So for me to stand in front of a group of strangers, largely strangers, I'd gotten to know a handful of people in the room.

Kyle McDowell
37:32 - 37:55
to say something like, and this, I will tell you, is a verbatim, I'm parroting back one of the sentences I shared that morning. And it was so profound to me at the time. It's like, Whoa, did you really just say that, that it stuck with me this many years later? And I, as I walked through the principles, I concluded and said, and by the way, guys, these are the same principles I expect you to hold me accountable to.

Kyle McDowell
37:55 - 38:16
And if I deviate, I expect you to grab me by the ear and say, Dude, you're being a hypocrite. I wouldn't have even used the word dude in the previous 20 years. But it was like, OK, man, this is your gut-check moment. This is, you now have a chance to be the leader you've always wanted to have, be the leader you never were, and try to reconnect with that sense of fulfillment and excitement and passion.

Kyle McDowell
38:17 - 38:25
So let's do it. So I was terrified. But, you know, maybe I'll take you up on your ask. Let me just quickly run through the principles.

Kyle McDowell
38:25 - 38:39
And I'll share one really very brief caveat, and that is, I know they're simple. They're incredibly simple. Simple does not always mean easy. There's so many things in life are simple that we don't do, right?

Kyle McDowell
38:39 - 38:48
We like, we know the recipe to lose weight, take in fewer calories, burn more calories. It's not easy though. Very simple, but not easy. The principles are no different and they require a choice.

Kyle McDowell
38:48 - 39:03
You have to make a choice to lead in a better way as we've discussed, but you have to make that choice every day. It's not a one-time thing because scenarios will change and you're going to get challenged over and over again. And it's going to be easy to lean back into your business card. So this is a choice that must be made over and over and over again.

Kyle McDowell
39:03 - 39:13
We start with the most fundamental foundational, It's way No. 1. We do the right thing, always. And I never leave out that one-word second sentence, because the right thing can be fleeting.

Kyle McDowell
39:13 - 39:26
We can argue and disagree about what the right thing is. We will never approach a scenario or a difficult task in front of us without that front of mind. Because when no one's looking, it's easy to cut corners from time to time. We all know that.

Kyle McDowell
39:27 - 39:42
But if we're all aligned on doing the right thing, it makes it much harder because we know we're going to let our teammates down. But if I'm going to be committed to doing the right thing, I have to be, be prepared to live Week No. 2, and that's we lead by example. You're already leading by example.

Kyle McDowell
39:42 - 39:51
So let's just get that out of the way. There's no question about, Should I lead by example? You are leading by an example. It's, the question is, Am I leading by an example I would be proud to see replicated?

Kyle McDowell
39:52 - 40:10
if it were replayed in the company newsletter, or there was a documentary film crew following me, my filter's my mother. My mom's been gone for about 13, 14 years now. If she were on my shoulder, did I treat the person in front of me in a one-on-one the way that would make her proud? And it's not the big things.

Kyle McDowell
40:10 - 40:21
It's not just like, you know, our fancy vocabularies and how we dress and how we carry ourselves. It's not those things. It's like when I'm walking down the hallway, as a leader in this organization, is my face buried in my phone? Or do I look up and say, Hey guys, what's up?

Kyle McDowell
40:21 - 40:34
Hey, Spencer, Christian, good to see you guys. Because that example is what I'm setting and that's going to be played out. Those two are going to keep their head down and not talk to the next person coming their way. And pretty soon we're a bunch of people with the same badge, but we're not, we're not on the same team.

Kyle McDowell
40:36 - 40:43
So if I'm going to lead by example, I've got to do what we've already talked about. I got to be good on my, make good on my commitments. We say we're going to do, and then we do it. It's pretty simple.

Kyle McDowell
40:43 - 40:59
And that matters probably more behind the scenes. Because if we're high-functioning and holding our commitments behind the scenes, the odds of us doing it for our clients and those we serve externally is exponentially greater. So when we make good on our commitments, that requires what? We have to take action.

Kyle McDowell
41:00 - 41:07
So we, No. 4, is we take action. And I like to add a little follow-up that says, taking action and making a mistake, that's OK. But being idle is not.

Kyle McDowell
41:08 - 41:26
Everyone on every team is almost always aware of something gnarly in the corner. that would probably make our jobs easier or make the customer experience better. It's either too expensive, or I'm not going to get any credit for it, so why bother with it? And worse off, if I take a swing at it and miss, I could get reprimanded, so there's very little incentive.

Kyle McDowell
41:27 - 41:35
But on a, on a we-oriented team, we're trying to build a culture of excellence. It's like, when we see something, we're going after that. We're at least going to discuss it. It may not be the No.

Kyle McDowell
41:35 - 41:46
1 priority, but we're going to, we're going to identify ways to get better every single day, and we're not going to turn our cheeks to them. But if we want people focused on taking action, We got to be prepared for mistakes. It's one I touched on earlier. It's we own our mistakes.

Kyle McDowell
41:47 - 42:03
Man, I truly believe we don't judge people by their mistakes. I really, I believe that. We judge them by how quickly they fix it, and if it happens again. And I think we can all, we've all been associated or had that restaurant experience where you get a, you know, something's underprepared or overprepared, whatever, you send it back.

Kyle McDowell
42:04 - 42:14
It's how they handle it. Like, you'll go tell people how they handled it more than you will tell them how good or bad the food was. So we have to be prepared for mistakes. Just own them, get them out, use them for growth opportunities and move on.

Kyle McDowell
42:16 - 42:34
But the only way people are going to do that, consciously and consistently do that, is with the following We, the We that comes right behind it. So we own our, sorry, we own our mistakes is followed by we pick each other up. So when a member of the team stumbles, we got to be there. When someone has an issue at home outside the workplace, because we all bring baggage to work, We got to be there for them.

Kyle McDowell
42:35 - 42:47
It's also the boss's, more appropriately, the leader's obligation is to help people reach new heights. We don't just pick them up when they're down. I think it's a human obligation to help members of our team achieve their next step, whatever that is. They want my job, let's talk about it.

Kyle McDowell
42:47 - 42:51
Let's figure out how to put you in that position. You want to leave the team? No problem. Where do you want to go?

Kyle McDowell
42:51 - 43:03
How do we arm you to get there? The outcome of that, while you still have them, is not less loyalty. They don't work less hard, because they know you're committed to them. They're going to be committed to you while you have them, while you're on the same team.

Kyle McDowell
43:05 - 43:20
One of my favorites is right behind that, it's Week No. 7, is we measure ourselves by outcomes, not activity. And this is so pervasive and mostly found in our meeting cadence. Too many meetings, not enough impact from those meetings, and I'd boil it down pretty simply.

Kyle McDowell
43:20 - 43:31
You have a finite list of objectives that are probably on your, your annual appraisal. Hopefully you get more than one appraisal a year, but, or your evaluation more than once a year. But most organizations, it's once a year. You have a very finite list of things.

Kyle McDowell
43:32 - 43:46
for which you're accountable. If you cannot draw a straight line from your activities, your meetings, the things that you're doing on a daily basis, if you cannot draw an imaginary straight line to those outcomes, they should be scrutinized. Why am I doing this? And often, you'll find that there's very little value in a lot of the things that we're doing.

Kyle McDowell
43:47 - 43:55
They certainly don't connect to the outcomes that we've been asked or tasked to deliver. We, No. 8 and 9, I've already touched on. We, we challenge each other and we embrace challenge.

Kyle McDowell
43:55 - 44:06
And then we round out with the final We is We No. 10. And I was purposeful to leave this at the end because I think it's a, it's really a recipe for disappointment, if it's any earlier. It's, we obsess over details.

Kyle McDowell
44:06 - 44:38
Details matter a whole lot. And there's a, you know, there's a, I walked the reader through a kind of a fishbone decision matrix of how, how, how you determine how much time to obsess over what, you know, whatever activity you're in. First of all, if it's going to go outside your 4 walls, if a client's going to see it, or if it's a marketing slick, or anyone outside of our team is going to see it, you must obsess. And it comes down to like the margins of our presentations, how well we represent the brand, our personal brand, as well as the brand that, you know, with, with the organization.

Kyle McDowell
44:38 - 44:54
But the point here is, details are what separates average from above average. It's what separates good bosses from great leaders, mediocre organizations from really high-performing and value-driven organizations. So I think you got to obsess over the details. Simple, not easy.

Kyle McDowell
44:55 - 45:06
And it's, these are always the results of a choice that must be made over and over again and reinforced when others live it, and kind of called out diplomatically when others don't. I'm grateful for

Spencer Horn
45:14 - 45:25
Sorry for cutting you off there. We are glad you shared them. I have a comment that they're not loading. So I'm just going to read the comment that we have from Patrick Hoban.

Spencer Horn
45:25 - 45:39
I don't know if you know him, Kyle. He says, you have perfectly captured the essence of transformative teamwork. Starting with we instead of me is how we build cultures of true collaboration and shared success. Well said.

Spencer Horn
45:40 - 45:44
So what you're saying is resonating with people. Certainly resonates with me.

Christian Napier
45:44 - 45:44
I

Spencer Horn
45:44 - 46:04
want to say one more thing, Christian, before I throw it back at you. One of the things that I teach executives more than anything else is delegation, how to let go and empower other people. I'm not just talking about giving them tasks. I'm having them involved in solving the problems of the business.

Spencer Horn
46:04 - 46:26
The steps are so basic, I say you're going to want to dismiss them thinking, But when you put them all together, you are going to struggle. You're going to fail at it, because it is a completely different way of thinking to actually put these all into practice. But they are so basic that we can say, well, that's too easy. I mean, how can you even write a book about this?

Spencer Horn
46:26 - 46:31
They're brilliant, though. You're exactly right. I love, love, love those 10 wheeze. Thank you for sharing them.

Christian Napier
46:35 - 46:46
I love this concept. I'm not just saying that because, oh, I got a guest on here and I'm trying to be nice. No, I'm serious. This really resonates with me.

Christian Napier
46:47 - 47:23
You mentioned that we do the right thing always is the foundational principle and the other nine things are the right things, right? Like the other nine we's are the right we's, like we need to be doing those. But I'm curious, you know, as you go into organizations, are you finding that there are certain we's that some organizations generally struggle with more than others? Or, you know, if you were gonna give a letter grade to an organization, if they don't get number one right, then they're just kind of failing all over the place.

Christian Napier
47:24 - 47:39
I mean, are there certain areas where you see some, I don't know if trends is the right word, but commonalities between organizations where this particular set of wes, are the ones that people seem to be struggling with the most?

Kyle McDowell
47:40 - 47:59
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Two come to mind quickly, but I think attributing missteps or lack of embrace of a couple of principles and saying it's the organization is, is kind of a cop-out. I've never met a person named Leadership. I've never met anybody named Management.

Kyle McDowell
48:00 - 48:38
These are human beings who are making decisions, sometimes subconsciously, but are making decisions to lead in a way that is not as impactful as it otherwise could be. The two that jump out to me as the toughest for, for for genuine and sustained embrace are the first is we challenge each other. It's hard for me to get out, but it is the absolute toughest because it requires the boss to say, all right, I'm gonna set my ego aside. And you are not only allowed, you are obligated to challenge me.

Kyle McDowell
48:38 - 48:48
Now there is a rule. We challenge each other does come with a rule. Your challenge must be grounded in either data or experience. Otherwise, it's your opinion, and we all have them.

Kyle McDowell
48:49 - 49:01
And that's not necessarily helpful. I'm moved by data or experience. So if we're in a staff meeting, and I say, Here's the approach we're taking, and this, we're heading down this path. And a member of the team was involved in a you know, similar scenario.

Kyle McDowell
49:01 - 49:15
Maybe they were a different company, had a similar rollout of this, of a similar marketing campaign. And they know from their experience that this is ripe with errors. They must challenge me. They must challenge me diplomatically, but bring that experience to the table.

Kyle McDowell
49:15 - 49:27
But more importantly, the boss, the leader of that team must be open to hearing that challenge. That's a hard one for folks to get. Now, every single person I've ever worked with will tell me, Yeah, I get it. Yeah, man.

Kyle McDowell
49:28 - 49:42
Yeah, we challenge each other. I'm going to be open. It's easy to say, but when it's actually in your face, when someone's sending you a screenshot instead of a workbook, it's really easy to lean back on your business card and say, Give me the damn document. But that's not embracing the challenge.

Kyle McDowell
49:42 - 49:56
That's being a boss. And then I mentioned that there are two. The other one is outcomes versus activity. And it's, it's such an insidious problem inside a lot of most organizations, regardless of size.

Kyle McDowell
49:57 - 50:16
And that is this dependency on meetings. not only the dependency on meetings, but the lack of meeting etiquette that is, not only slows progress, it actually drives resentment among the team, because it's like, Oh, shit, I got to go to this meeting again. That I didn't, I didn't have any value. I didn't leave that meeting with any value.

Kyle McDowell
50:16 - 50:37
I don't think I even contribute any value. You know, Korn Ferry had a study, reasonably recently, that said 63 Respondents, 60-something, I forget the exact number, Respondents said, I will go to a meeting even if I know it adds zero value to the role that I'm in or the job that I am, you know, out to accomplish or deliver. 63%!

Kyle McDowell
50:39 - 50:56
So the meeting etiquette starts when we send an invite, and there's a subject, but there's no details of why we're meeting, right? No anticipated outcomes, no what we're hoping to accomplish, just like show up. And then we show up, and we got too many people in the room. Scope creep starts to become a real thing.

Kyle McDowell
50:56 - 51:10
We don't document who's responsible for what. We show up a month later to this recurring meeting, not knowing what we accomplished last time. We certainly don't recall who was on point to do something. So the etiquette must be addressed, I think, as well as the principle itself.

Kyle McDowell
51:10 - 51:37
But the point here is, the example I love to use is, man, fellas, I love that my Uber driver picks me up with gas in the car. That's an activity in which he or she must have been engaged before they get to the outcome, but I'm not paying for that. I'm paying to get from A to B. And I think if most consumers or customers or those that consume our product or service, if they knew how much time we spend in meetings that don't change the outcome of the product that they're buying from us, They would be really, really frustrated with that.

Kyle McDowell
51:37 - 51:43
But we wear it like a badge of honor. I was, I was booked 7 times yesterday. I had meetings back-to-back from 8 till 6. That's not impressive to me.

Kyle McDowell
51:44 - 51:48
Let's talk about the outcomes from those meetings before we get too excited about the time that we're spending in them.

Spencer Horn
51:49 - 52:05
Yeah, absolutely. Outcomes versus activities. We could spend an entire session just on effective meetings, Kyle and Christian. Hey, really quickly, I'm really excited to share, we've got a sponsor, and that's Team Coaching International.

Spencer Horn
52:05 - 52:23
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Spencer Horn
52:24 - 52:44
It's feedback on the impact of your leadership, which is what we've been talking about. You'll see where communication, trust, accountability, and alignment are working. and where small changes can make big results. And so if you're watching this, you can take a screenshot and you can download and get an application for the diagnostic for free.

Spencer Horn
52:44 - 53:00
And if you're just listening to this, we'll give you the link to download for the show notes. Christian, I had to do that super quickly, but we're running out of time. We've already gone 50 minutes and it feels

Christian Napier
53:00 - 53:00
like

Spencer Horn
53:00 - 53:01
this has gone so fast.

Christian Napier
53:02 - 53:11
It has gone so fast. So why don't we end it fast, Spencer? Because I know you've got a lot of questions and not a lot of time. So maybe we do a little lightning round.

Spencer Horn
53:11 - 53:38
Well, I do want to do a lightning round, but I do want to ask you. I, so many of my questions you've, you've already asked, but you know, if the team wants to adopt or, you know, really adopt these, these 10 wheeze, how do you recommend that, that they, that they start doing that? I mean, how, how can, how can someone take what you've been talking about today and, and make it come to life in their organization? I

Kyle McDowell
53:39 - 53:58
love to answer that question with what you, the one and only thing you should not do. And that is show up to work on a Monday because you picked up some book or maybe you watched a podcast or, or whatever, however you were exposed to this approach and say, this is what we're doing. Everything changes today, guys. This is who we are now.

Kyle McDowell
53:58 - 54:08
Let's, everybody put your hands in, let's go. That's an initiative. And that is not sustainable because motivation is fleeting, right? The motivation is there.

Kyle McDowell
54:09 - 54:16
It's, it's ripe. It, it feels good. You know, it's the right thing to do. But it is fleeting.

Kyle McDowell
54:16 - 54:27
We need a sustainable approach. And for me, that's, it's, it's very, very simple. It's, I don't own this. This is not me telling you what we're going to do or how we're going to behave.

Kyle McDowell
54:27 - 54:44
This is me telling you how I expect you to hold me accountable, how I expect you, the things you can count on from me. Now, I happen to, I'm going to hold you accountable to the same standards. It's my hope that you subscribe to these. And I use that word too, and I don't, it's not, it's not accidental.

Kyle McDowell
54:44 - 54:54
I hope you subscribe to these principles. Rarely is anybody going to say, Nah, this is not for me, man. I don't, I don't believe in doing the right thing. I don't want to lead by example.

Kyle McDowell
54:55 - 55:07
This is just, no, no one's going to look you in the eye and say, These things are not for me. However, if they do, in the random event someone does, the approach I always take is, no, no hard feelings. I will help you find another role. And I don't mean I'm going to fire you.

Kyle McDowell
55:08 - 55:35
I mean, I'm going to work to find something for you either inside the, inside the organization, or if you want to leave, bounce somewhere else, I'll do whatever I can to help you find that role. But make no mistake, these are, these are the standards by which we measure ourselves. Once the boss more appropriately, hopefully, transitioning to a leader, makes that statement or that series of statements to say, Here are the black and white things. And by the way, almost everything I do is in black and white for this very reason.

Kyle McDowell
55:36 - 55:54
There's not a lot of shades of gray in here. It's like you're on board or you're not. Once you've, once the team and you are aligned that these are our expectations, now we have to live them, conspicuously, every single day. It's like, and there are some, there are some subliminal benefits once everyone has subscribed.

Kyle McDowell
55:54 - 56:03
It's like, you got to have a tough conversation. The first thing you say is, Hey, we challenge each other, right? Hey, Christian, Spencer, let's have, we got to have a tough talk, man. And we challenge each other.

Kyle McDowell
56:03 - 56:21
And And then you go into the issue. Also, when someone's not performing the way that you kind of have expected them to, or maybe it's different than the way they've performed in the past, you start that conversation by saying, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm a little concerned. And you know, we pick each other up, right? You don't have to share exactly what's going on.

Kyle McDowell
56:22 - 56:27
But I just need you to know, I recognize something's going on, and I'm here for you. Why? Because I care, man. I care.

Kyle McDowell
56:27 - 56:42
We pick each other up. So Once the subscription has been kind of secured, how conspicuously can we, can we evangelize these principles over and over again? Facing a tough decision, you say, Well, we always do the right thing, right? So let's figure this out.

Kyle McDowell
56:43 - 57:01
The more it's played over and over again, these words become part of our nomenclature. They're our daily vernacular, and they almost become a cultural currency that everyone has the same amount to spend. And it's a shame when they don't. But we can't, we can't be subliminal and just assume that people are going to start living these principles.

Kyle McDowell
57:02 - 57:09
They have to see me do it. I can't talk about it. They have to see me live it. My words are important, but they mean nothing if my behavior doesn't match it.

Kyle McDowell
57:09 - 57:40
And that's where I think the best of intentions slide off the side of the road is when our intention becomes to have this big transformation. But when reality smacks us in the face and says it's harder, it requires more energy from the leader, requires more time spent on a different series of things, not just outcomes, but the people actually delivering the outcomes, it is harder. There's no question. But the fulfillment on the other side, the connections that we make, this leadership legacy that we create, is something that we can look back and be very proud about.

Kyle McDowell
57:40 - 57:44
But not only that, the results take care of themselves. It's not hypothetical.

Spencer Horn
57:52 - 58:00
So no wonder you were terrified when you were going to roll this out because it requires courage. And by the way, courage is not the absence of fear, right? And so

Christian Napier
58:00 - 58:00
I heard

Spencer Horn
58:01 - 58:18
you've got to be courageously willing to make yourself vulnerably out there. Just put yourself out there and then it's a process and it can take Years really to make that happen. That's what I heard. So lightning round super fast All right, we may not get through all of them.

Spencer Horn
58:18 - 58:37
Number one the most powerful we in your own leadership journey We challenge each other Number two one leadership lesson you learned the hard way. I think you shared that but It's probably not what you're thinking. It's asked for help Excellent a principle you never compromise on we do the right thing

Kyle McDowell
58:38 - 58:50
a team leader you admire and why? William Krenz. Reported to him for a few years at one point. He gave me a scope of responsibility that had no business owning.

Kyle McDowell
58:50 - 58:55
It was going really well. And what I historically owned, he gave me an opportunity. I said, He's crazy. I'm going to fail at this.

Kyle McDowell
58:55 - 58:56
It's never going to work.

Spencer Horn
58:56 - 58:58
That's the stretch I was talking about, right?

Kyle McDowell
59:00 - 59:07
Yep. We talked about this recently. I haven't talked to, I don't talk to William often, but we talked about that scenario and we still laugh about it. How I was so pissed off at him.

Kyle McDowell
59:08 - 59:08
I

Spencer Horn
59:09 - 59:19
love that. One word that describes a healthy culture. Transparent. A book or podcast that shape your leadership style.

Kyle McDowell
59:24 - 59:36
Two books. From Values to Action by Harry Kramer, brilliant man, great book. The second is A Curveball You May Not Expect, The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle.

Spencer Horn
59:36 - 59:42
Yeah. What's your go-to reset when work feels overwhelming? Fitness. Excellent.

Spencer Horn
59:42 - 59:45
One more. We before me in one sentence, go.

Kyle McDowell
59:49 - 59:54
No leadership gap. I think one sentence is a tough one for that, man.

Christian Napier
59:58 - 1:00:05
It's a challenge. Well done. It is a challenge. And I cannot believe that we've already spent an hour having this conversation.

Christian Napier
1:00:05 - 1:00:22
I can go a lot longer. Kyle, it's been an honor to have you as a guest. If people want to learn more about the 10 Whys, about how you could potentially help the organizations or help them as individuals evolve their leadership, what's the best way for people to connect with you?

Kyle McDowell
1:00:23 - 1:00:30
Yeah, pretty simple. So pretty much all social media is the same. It's at KyleMcDowellInc. My website is KyleMcDowellInc.com.

Kyle McDowell
1:00:31 - 1:00:49
Book is Begin With We, 10 Principles for Building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence, wherever books are sold. But I didn't want to get too far down the road without saying thank you to you guys, man. You guys are doing really important work. You've got a great following, and I'm honored to be a part of it and share my, a bit of my story with you today.

Kyle McDowell
1:00:49 - 1:00:50
So, you know, big thanks.

Christian Napier
1:00:51 - 1:01:08
Thank you. Well, we really appreciate your time here. And more importantly, the knowledge and wisdom that you've dropped on us in the last 60 minutes has been just invaluable. Spencer, you've been helping teams, organizations build high-performing teams for decades.

Christian Napier
1:01:08 - 1:01:09
How should people connect with you?

Spencer Horn
1:01:10 - 1:01:24
Just LinkedIn, LinkedIn, and hey, we got a comment that showed up. I don't know how it worked, but here's what Felicia Schoenthal says. Exactly. Assign action items with the expectation of updates and progress in the next meeting.

Spencer Horn
1:01:24 - 1:01:31
So she's going back. No judgment, simply open mind transparency. Felicia, thanks for chiming in. We love that when we hear from you.

Spencer Horn
1:01:32 - 1:01:37
Christian, same thing. How can people find my amazing friend, Christian Napier? And isn't he great, Kyle?

Kyle McDowell
1:01:38 - 1:01:40
Fantastic. Man in black, like you

Christian Napier
1:01:40 - 1:01:40
said. Take

Kyle McDowell
1:01:40 - 1:01:41
on

Christian Napier
1:01:41 - 1:01:47
another one. I'm easy to find. Just look me up on LinkedIn. That's great.

Christian Napier
1:01:47 - 1:01:55
And in the spirit of taking action, thank you listeners for joining us. Please like and subscribe to our podcast and we'll catch you again soon.