Teamwork - A Better Way

Christian Napier
00:13 - 00:23
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Teamwork a Better Way. I'm Christian Apier and I am joined by my host that is filled with gratitude at this time of year, Spencer Horn. Spencer, how you doing? I

Spencer Horn
00:23 - 00:31
am filled with gratitude. I actually heard, you know that song Thanksgiving by George Winston? Do you remember that from the 80s? Oh gosh,

Christian Napier
00:32 - 00:32
you're dating

Spencer Horn
00:32 - 00:33
us.

Christian Napier
00:34 - 00:34
There was

Spencer Horn
00:34 - 00:44
a guy, there was a guy in the Portland airport last night that was playing that and I was so thankful. Yes, I am thankful. It was, I love that song. It's so beautiful.

Spencer Horn
00:44 - 00:50
It's perfect a time of year for him to be playing Thanksgiving. Absolutely.

Christian Napier
00:50 - 01:09
Well, uh, Spencer, it's been a minute since, uh, since we done one of these podcasts and I apologize for my microphone volume. It keeps adjusting itself. Uh, stable. So, uh, I'll have to fix that for next time.

Christian Napier
01:09 - 01:23
So I, I'm very, very sorry about my microphone volume, but since last we spoke, you've probably been to, I don't know, maybe 112 different countries or something. I don't know what's been going on in the world of Spencer. Oh

Spencer Horn
01:23 - 01:32
my gosh. So we just got back late last night from Portland. We were, we were there and we had like a two day rest where we were. traveling internationally for 19 days.

Spencer Horn
01:32 - 01:43
It started off with going to Iguazu in Brazil, so Jen and I got to fly over the falls. I think you've been there, right? I have, yeah. You lucky guy.

Spencer Horn
01:43 - 02:08
That is so amazing. And then I spoke at a conference in Curitiba, Brazil. We came home for two hours, jumped on a plane, flew to Athens, flew to Sofia, Bulgaria, spoke in front of 700 people at a conference there, went to Serbia, went to Hungary, went to Austria, then back to Greece, spoke at an event in Greece, and then flew to Paris, came home.

Spencer Horn
02:08 - 02:34
A couple days, jumped on a plane to Portland where I was speaking on Tuesday and then we went down to Crater Lake and we had a fail at Crater Lake. We planned two days being in Portland and Crater Lake is closed because of snow. So we did not get to see the lake and we had this little cabin on the pond, kind of a lake. I didn't realize there's no place to stay at Crater Lake.

Spencer Horn
02:34 - 02:53
It's like remote. There's no place other than it looked like just a little cabin in the woods and we were worried because we were the only ones there and Jana's like, this is how I'll murder You know, books I read start. I found this big, huge spider leaning against the bed wall. I went to the bathroom.

Spencer Horn
02:53 - 03:03
It was crawling on my neck. And I freaked out and went to check the bed to make sure there were no more cousins or friends. So it all turned out great. It was cozy.

Spencer Horn
03:03 - 03:10
And it was fun. But we did get home late, late last night. So my voice is a little raspy.

Christian Napier
03:13 - 03:20
Wow, well, I went to McDonald's. No, shut up. What

Spencer Horn
03:20 - 03:22
did you do? Come on, besides McDonald's.

Christian Napier
03:24 - 03:40
I spoke at two different conferences for the Department of Health and Human Services. See, Chip. And I did another one on AARP. These are all AI related, so in my role with the state.

Christian Napier
03:41 - 03:46
Yeah. And then a couple of other little things like that. But other than that, it's just been

Spencer Horn
03:46 - 03:56
just... Listeners, you have to know this is finally get Christian to do a humble brag because he is so humble. He's out there changing the world.

Christian Napier
03:57 - 04:10
Well, I'm so glad that we got a chance to catch up, Spencer, but we really need to get to our guest because I'm super excited to hear what he has to say today. So why don't you go ahead and introduce him?

Spencer Horn
04:10 - 04:33
Yes. Well, first of all, he's bringing a topic which I'm so excited about from fission to fusion and how empowered teams can create exponential results. And so let's talk a little bit about his bona fides. He has, for four decades, has dedicated his career to empowering small businesses and business owners to transform their vision into reality.

Spencer Horn
04:34 - 04:47
And he has a deep foundation in banking and economics. from his earliest days in Winston-Salem. As you know, that's a nice little banking... headquarters there, to execute leadership in three regional banks.

Spencer Horn
04:48 - 05:24
And Chip's business banking strategies consistently earned each institutional national best brand, Christian. That's the kind of recognition that Greenwich Associates only gives to the very best. Yet his true focus has always been serving entrepreneurs directly and recognizing the vital role they play in shaping communities and driving economic progress. And he is the author of The Bysics Way, which happens to be a number one Amazon bestseller built on the profound idea that momentum isn't just a business buzzword.

Spencer Horn
05:24 - 05:43
And I think that momentum is some of the physics that we're gonna talk about in team performance, I'm hoping. And it's a universal law that shapes lasting success at every level. And he expertly applies physics equations for momentum. And I'm really excited to learn about that mass times velocity.

Spencer Horn
05:44 - 06:05
as it's applied to business. And so excited to hear that. So through his business coaching practice, he started that in 2019, and he's really able to teach businesses how to create that momentum. Now with his book, he's able to really demystify business and leadership for entrepreneurs.

Spencer Horn
06:05 - 06:20
And he just gives so many practical tools and encouragement for their journey. So, you know, he has an AI background as well. Is that right, Chip? Bring him on the screen, because I'm sure Christian will be excited to hear if that's the case.

Chip Higgins
06:21 - 06:25
Yeah, I have a experience. I depend on a lot of people.

Spencer Horn
06:26 - 06:36
Well, I could read and read and read all of your bona fides, so I'm cutting it short because I think our readers get the idea. You have a lot of experience. Welcome to the show.

Chip Higgins
06:37 - 06:42
Thanks for having me on. I've been so excited for this conversation. I've been really looking forward to it.

Spencer Horn
06:43 - 06:59
Well, so tell us, just talk a little about the journey. So you've been in banking for a lot of years and then you've transitioned to coaching businesses and entrepreneurs. You did that while at the bank and talk to us about that transition and why you did that and why you love that so much.

Chip Higgins
07:00 - 07:32
Yeah, it really started in 2011. I decided to join the John Maxwell team of coaches and speakers and trainers and really just fell in love with the idea of coaching and how it helps individuals grow. And at a corporate level, you know, companies with great coaching programs, I think, kind of exceed the norms for their industry and performance. So I got very enamored by coaching, but it was mostly on leadership topics.

Chip Higgins
07:32 - 07:55
And while I was at that last bank, I started having different kinds of interactions with business owners. I started a mastermind program on the e-myth revisited by Michael Gerber. and try to, you know, engage our frontline people in advisory conversations without, you know, being consultants or giving advice. And, you know, masterminding is a great way to do that, just building awareness.

Chip Higgins
07:55 - 08:29
And I don't know, it's just one of those lightning strike epiphanies. Somewhere along the way, I just realized that You know, after 35 or 40 years of figuring out how to get credit deployed to communities and businesses that I'd seen a very small slice of the pie of what small business owners and entrepreneurs deal with. And just felt like I had a different calling at that point in my life and started up BizX. And I'd had the idea of BizX on my mind for a really long time as a very useful framework for businesses to latch on to.

Spencer Horn
08:30 - 08:50
So you introduce in your book this metaphor, which I think is really powerful, of really from, you compare fission and fusion to leadership styles. And can you break that down for us? And what's the difference? And why does that matter for teams?

Chip Higgins
08:52 - 09:13
Oh, yeah, I believe it's night and day. And I don't want to teach the book in the short time that we have. But I think underlying that equation of mass times velocity embedded in it is a huge emphasis on energy. And we can't really have velocity without energy.

Chip Higgins
09:14 - 09:47
And it turns out speed and energy have a squared relationship. If you're trying to move twice as fast, you need four times the energy and just going up the square scale about how much energy you need. So the book intentionally has a very heavy focus on energy. And as I look at leadership and what's required of leaders, there are a lot of characteristics of leaders with integrity and vision and a number of attributes that you would recognize in your career.

Chip Higgins
09:47 - 10:10
But fundamental to it all is a source of energy and a distributor of energy across the organization. And most of the time that takes a form of culture. That's what I like to say in my book is cultures are power grids basically for the energy created at the top. And so my chapter on leadership in the book is called Inertia.

Chip Higgins
10:10 - 10:41
And that physics idea is that we're going to keep doing the same thing that we've done until we're knocked off course, or we kind of float over the horizon into oblivion. We're just going to keep doing the same things that we do. And how do we start developing leadership in organizations that's not positional, but goes all the way down to the front line? And that's where I start sharing ideas about the way energy is created in organizations, and what's healthy and sustainable, and what is very short-term focused.

Chip Higgins
10:42 - 10:51
So, you know, thank you for giving me a little time to talk about that. And I just want to dive right into fish and infusion, because I really haven't had the chance to talk with experts about this.

Spencer Horn
10:52 - 10:54
That's what we're excited about, right, Christian?

Chip Higgins
10:55 - 10:55
Yeah,

Spencer Horn
10:56 - 10:57
absolutely. And I'm

Chip Higgins
10:57 - 10:57
sitting

Spencer Horn
10:57 - 11:14
here taking notes, and I love the equation so far. I know I'm interrupting you, but you're going to keep going. But energy, so you said if you want to move twice as fast, because there's a squared relationship with energy, you need four times the energy. OK, now I'm nervous, because I'm a business owner.

Spencer Horn
11:14 - 11:19
I'm like, where am I going to get that? So, Christian, I don't know,

Chip Higgins
11:19 - 11:42
what do you think? And I say this almost every time I speak, podcasts are on the stage. You know, 40 years of banking, I feel like virtually every company that I've seen fail has run out of energy way before they ran out of money. And I think that sometimes we That's another place I think we think energy is kind of a fun topic to talk about the energy bus or whatever the topic is.

Chip Higgins
11:42 - 11:57
But I mean, energy underlies everything that we do in the universe. I mean, it's just I don't want to get cosmic, but I think that is a statement that has a lot of academic support. And I think it's what we experience. Energy is a really critical thing.

Chip Higgins
11:58 - 12:34
And I think about some of the main ways that energy is produced. I live in the TVA district here in Tennessee, so we love coal and power plants and that type of thing. It's always some type of vibrational field that's taking place that we figure out how to distribute that. And in my book, the vibrational field of an entrepreneurial startup, a business of any kind, is really the vibration between the gap between where you are today and the great vision that you have for yourself.

Chip Higgins
12:35 - 13:15
How are you going to help a certain segment of people better than anybody else in achieving that vision? And it becomes how we tend to that vibrational field every single day at work and in our personal lives, about how we sustain that and make it a high frequency, high vibrational, high energy experience. So when we get into fission and fusion, which I'm becoming more and more obsessed with fusion, and I continue to see things in the news that blow my mind. And I don't know that in this age of AI, where we're so worried about power sources, if people are really tuned into what's going on around the globe with fusion energy.

Chip Higgins
13:16 - 13:52
But in a fission world, I mean, we're basically talking about breaking things apart. And if you think about Oak Ridge and atomic bombs and nuclear energy, which is probably the strongest, most consistent power source, it has its own toxic side effects, but a little bit different than the carbon dioxide phenomenon. But basically what's happening with that is something is being split apart. They've taken an atom, some type of isotope, And the division of that atom creates a massive energy field.

Chip Higgins
13:53 - 13:54
Isn't that

Spencer Horn
13:54 - 13:56
short-term massive energy?

Chip Higgins
13:58 - 14:15
Well, that's my premise in the book. So you're dividing things that create a huge energy blast. And they've devised ways to distribute that. I couldn't get into what happens after the reactor, but there are distribution systems for it.

Chip Higgins
14:15 - 14:39
And that energy starts flowing out along some kind of grid and it powers things up. We know that it's a very dangerous phenomenon. I mean, there are radioactive elements that are released or, you know, just here in Tennessee, you know, rivers have been horribly contaminated by the output of nuclear reactors. So that is a tremendous power source.

Chip Higgins
14:40 - 15:10
And but at the same time, like part of my book is just this constant reflection on how does that work in business? You know, going from mass, velocity, energy, all that. And you know what came to my mind immediately that I found very true is just the traditional organizational chart and leadership of a hierarchy where something has happened at the top of the chart that starts flowing down to everybody else. And the first thing that you have in that kind of environment is dissipation.

Chip Higgins
15:11 - 15:33
I'm not a physicist, but I know that as energy is produced and distributed, depending on the way that it's being conducted, that the zap you get at the end is not where it started. I think that whatever we feel when we mess around with electrical socket in our homes is not what's happening at the nuclear reactor. I know that for a fact. So we have a dissipation problem.

Chip Higgins
15:33 - 15:52
But we also have a really difficult toxicity that develops as things are divided. And in human nature, when I'm up, let's start at the most basic level, I'm a business owner. I slaved in my garage for years. I was on my dining room floor.

Chip Higgins
15:52 - 16:14
I was doing whatever, like I'm building this thing and I'm figuring everything out. And you reach that wall of knowing that you're capable of figuring it out, but you've really just kind of run out of resources for yourself and you have to start building the organization. And as soon as that happens, you start dividing up your kingdom. You divide up responsibilities among a group of people.

Chip Higgins
16:15 - 16:52
And there is toxicity that comes out of that often, not in all well-run organizations, but you're suddenly in a place where living in the org chart creates turf battles, poor energy distribution through the system, where not every leader really is capable of carrying the energy message. And I know from personal experience in life, you know, as a kid, I use this example all the time. When I got my first electric train set, I would set it up in my basement, and I'd be down there just kind of playing railroad engineer. And the thing would stop.

Chip Higgins
16:52 - 17:16
And I'd check the plug, and it was working fine. And I'd go all around, and I quickly discovered that these little clips that hold the railroad track together, if one clip was separated, it would stop the whole thing. you know, I mean, and, you know, so that was a big learning experience that I ultimately latched on to. And it was the first thing I checked over, you know, whether the power was running to our house or not, it was probably a conductivity problem.

Chip Higgins
17:17 - 18:00
And so I think these, you know, these charts create all kinds of possibilities for energy not totally flowing through to people. And, you That's what I call the fission approach to leadership. And that dividing and dividing and dividing really doesn't get the full energy impact of where you're going to need to grow. So, I'm real close to explaining this whole waterfront to you guys.

Chip Higgins
18:01 - 18:21
I'll kind of hit on fusion real quickly and how that works and why it's so relevant in the world today. But I think it's probably one of the most important things in a leadership culture. In a fusion world, we're replicating the work of the sun. When we think about the most powerful energy source that we know, the Sun.

Chip Higgins
18:22 - 18:39
What is happening at the Sun's surface is that hydrogen atoms are colliding to create helium, basically. Or maybe vice versa. I might have that backwards. But there are atoms that have like this tremendous vibrational frequency.

Chip Higgins
18:39 - 19:11
I believe it's helium. And as those atoms are colliding in that field, like, you know, just an unimaginable amount of vibrational effect that's happening at the sun's surface, they are ultimately combining to create hydrogen. They're creating something else. So what's happening around the energy landscape around the world right now is all kinds of commercialization ventures to reproduce that kind of energy on Earth.

Chip Higgins
19:12 - 19:45
And the way it's working in these incubators is basically that They're taking isotopes of helium. It's not helium per se, but they're close enough. You know, there's a little bit off at the nucleus. They're creating plasma screens, and they built a environment around it where they basically pound that plasma with lasers nonstop until they start really replicating what's happening on the sun's surface in a commercial environment.

Chip Higgins
19:45 - 20:03
And, you know, I shared one today on LinkedIn in anticipation of this podcast. But, you know, there's, there's one in the UK that is getting a lot of notoriety. And these aren't sustained. You know, right now, where the technology is, I mean, they're, they're probably replicating it for 15 or 20 seconds.

Chip Higgins
20:03 - 20:19
But the output is unimaginable. It's like, you know, 36 million watts. I mean, it's nothing we've ever seen on Earth out of nuclear or anything else. It's like the power to, you know, electrify the whole globe.

Chip Higgins
20:20 - 20:34
That's the power of it. And so, you know, at least we acknowledge that the power of fusion is exponentially higher than what we're getting out of fission. That's kind of the concept to it. So it takes us into the corporate environment about how we replicate that.

Chip Higgins
20:35 - 21:04
And I've had many experiences in my banking career. Some have been average or not so great. And then I've had like really peak experiences in leadership and the way that this happens in organizations. But if I could summarize it so we could get into questions or dig a little bit deeper, what I say in my chapter on inertia, on leadership is, All the things that I've been around, the Maxwell, everything that I've studied, I try to boil it down to something

Chip Higgins
21:04 - 21:12
really simple. The leader needs to be inspirational. They're breathing spirit into somebody. They need to be motivational.

Chip Higgins
21:12 - 21:30
They are demonstrating the work that needs to be done. And ultimately, they're empowering. They're giving the person the ability to become their own power source. And if you think about the entrepreneur started it, they figured out some type of culture to distribute their energy.

Chip Higgins
21:31 - 22:15
What a huge bonus payoff when you find out that every person in your company is a potentially viable energy source that can be tapped and brought to life. So when I think about that vibrational field, really, to me, what's happening in organizations that do this well is that that inspiration or the breathing into is breathing in the whole corporate spirit mission, the vibrational field of what you're bringing, and breathing that into a human being that has their own vibrational field. I mean, every person that comes to work has something that they're aspirational about, they dream about, they want it for their family, they want it for themselves, you know, whether it's, you know, physical, material things, or a way of life or education or whatever, like every person is

Chip Higgins
22:15 - 22:47
coming to work with hopes and dreams. And a leadership culture that maintains that intense laser-type focus on mission, vision, values, and is creating an environment where people understand and accept that they are empowered to go there to figure out, to figure out the day-to-day deliverables and problems. is the same reaction as isotopes coming together and being heated up by a laser in a lab in the UK. It's the same thing.

Chip Higgins
22:48 - 23:36
And what you find in that type of organization is there are less layers in the organization, and there's not this bizarre energy flow from the problem back up to the chain to the person that was the founder of the company to say yes or no. So you become more agile and more energized because these spirits are intertwining with each other in a way that creates a massive energy burst that's highly sustainable, just like fusion energy. It's still pounding us with energy. So I think the experience that I've had is that, and I've been in, I don't wanna say large compared to Microsoft, but I'd say most of the places I've worked have been 2,000 or 3,000 employees or greater.

Chip Higgins
23:37 - 23:51
And how do you even begin that process of a laser focus on the spirit of your company in the onboarding process? And people come to work. They're put to work. They have a job to do.

Chip Higgins
23:51 - 24:06
It's part of the org chart. There's a deliverable for this group or that group. But what is the mechanism where people sit there and are pounded in the best way possible with, this is what we're about, and this is how we behave. These are the values.

Chip Higgins
24:07 - 24:29
I'm the person that is initiating this, and I'm going to train this on you every day, every week, every quarter, so that you understand in everything you do that that's what we're about. And I had the great fortune of working at a highly regarded workplace. I think they're always in the top 5 or 10 in the country, pinnacle financial partners. And it's the most amazing thing.

Chip Higgins
24:29 - 24:54
I mean, it's still happening today. The founder of the company, spends three days with every single employee that joins. I mean, they hear it from the founder about what they're about. And there's an amazing human bonding going on, but there's also this fusion synthesis of personal dreams and being in a work environment that means something to them, and they understand how that fits together.

Chip Higgins
24:54 - 25:12
I feel like I'm rambling on now and it's probably a good time for you to pick me apart on this whole idea, but I just find that less layers and laser focus on bringing the best out of people in the context of the organization is the energy equivalent of fusion energy in an organization.

Christian Napier
25:22 - 25:39
So I really, really, really like the analogy. I want to stretch it and see if it holds. So when you position it like that, the natural question is, well, why isn't everybody doing this? Because the fusion approach is much better than the fission approach.

Christian Napier
25:39 - 26:11
So why is it that it's still relatively rare? Spencer often you know cites the statistics you know between eight twelve percent of teens are high-performing everybody else is underperforming So if I were going to take the the fish and fusion analogy you know one thing I would say is Number one, we have a clear understanding of how to do fission. It is much easier.

Christian Napier
26:12 - 26:43
There's a history of doing it. Quite honestly, fusion, number one, takes more energy to generate the fusion than we're generating an output. And as you mentioned, we can sustain the reactions for a matter of seconds, depending on whose reactor you're looking at. And so it's still relatively novel, but the promise is extraordinary.

Christian Napier
26:43 - 27:21
And so I'm curious to hear from your perspective what you're seeing in organizations that even though they know the promise of fusion is there, fission seems to be kind of the de facto way to go. I mean, I just think, you know, just looking at from analogy, it's like, okay, we've, this science has been around for 80 plus years, you know, and it's established and people know how it works and yet has terrible side effects, but it does generate a lot of energy. Fusion holds tremendous promise. We're still trying to figure it out.

Christian Napier
27:21 - 27:27
You know, so, you know, I'm just curious to get your take on, No, I

Chip Higgins
27:27 - 27:54
mean, honestly, like, I've been so excited as this conversation with two pros. I mean, I love, I love talking about these topics and I really haven't had the chance up till now to get into this one. So I really appreciate the question. I think there are several levels, you know, I think at a very basic level, By and large, have we totally embraced the idea of empowerment?

Chip Higgins
27:56 - 28:31
You know, I know with small businesses in particular, owner-managed, closely-held businesses, There's, there's a lot of fear about what's going to happen with people and what kind of decisions they're going to make. Is it something we could fix if it doesn't work? And it's a huge emotional investment for an owner or a C-level leadership team to say, we are really, we are really, truly bought into empowerment, because we, we're going to discover the very best of people in energy fields that we're too tired to move the company forward. We need other people doing it.

Chip Higgins
28:31 - 29:17
I think that there's a natural reluctance to adopt a mindset that I will find more power in other people as they kind of merge these two aspirational worlds of company and person together. It's a huge divide to conquer, and it requires a leader or an employee to assign a value to a person that's beyond their output. And I feel like in our, you know, our economy, our just our way of doing business now, like the output is so important. And we don't necessarily aspire to the human side of it, that this is an appreciating, energizing asset to the company.

Chip Higgins
29:17 - 29:25
It's not, it's not a burden. It's not just somebody that is, you know, part of the production line. So I think, I think there's a big, a big mind shift on that. That's No.

Chip Higgins
29:25 - 29:56
1. I think the second part is really a personal thing in leadership about, you know, moving from position to influence and importance in the way that we communicate with people. Because if I, if I, if I, if I were on a team, and, you know, I got the promotion, somebody left or, you know, the company grew or whatever, it's kind of like, Chip, You know, you've been, you've been killing it out there. And we love what you're doing.

Chip Higgins
29:56 - 30:18
You're in charge now. You get, you get into very positional leadership attributes of checking the boxes and performance, adhering to guidelines. It's very managerial, really, in nature. And what we really need people doing is driving themselves through personal change into a leadership mindset that involves very scary things for people.

Chip Higgins
30:19 - 30:53
And I would include in that vulnerability. Part of inspiration to me is that we have to share a compelling story with the people we're following about how the mission, vision, values, and experiences have affected me personally and what you want for other people. And so many people today are very guarded about their inner self and what they're willing to share to create that field where, you know, the inspiration can create that vibrational field with people. And, you know, I see more and more about empathy.

Chip Higgins
30:54 - 31:17
I see more and more about, you know, emotional intelligence, situational intelligence. I think there's a lot of progress being made. at lower, I would say lower levels, you know, in the, in the, in the fishing world, but, you know, people at, you know, beginning stage leadership to help them to adopt a mindset of heart over knowledge. And that's my hope as we continue down that path.

Chip Higgins
31:17 - 31:40
I think it's very possible. I mean, I see it not only in work, but in daily life that when people are willing to share a story that's attached to the values, it's very compelling and stirs things in the hearts of people that we would never recognize. So there's probably more to it than that. I would say, you know, those are the two that stand out to me is like, how do we, how do we even define leadership in an organization?

Chip Higgins
31:40 - 31:57
And we're used to the efficient world of like, you know, Big Chip's going to be mad at the top if we don't hit our goals. Just know the values are on the wall, but what I need is 10,000 units. That

Spencer Horn
31:57 - 32:01
ends up being the pressure of the reality of the business that creates

Chip Higgins
32:01 - 32:01
that

Spencer Horn
32:01 - 32:16
pressure for that leader to say, we need the 10,000 units. Here's my experience. I agree with you, Chip, that it absolutely can be learned. It starts with, I think you said, it's a personal transformation.

Spencer Horn
32:16 - 32:50
I think one of the biggest challenges here is the empowering part. In my experience, when I meet with CEOs all over the country, And the number one, when I'm coaching them, the number one challenge they have is letting go and truly empowering others. And you framed it in the sense that if you create that, you know, mission, vision, values, that's the part of the breathing into, right? That people who have actually had that vision and they've bought into it and their vision and values are aligned with that.

Spencer Horn
32:50 - 33:10
So that's hiring the right people. These are things that I am interpreting that you're saying. You've got people that are aligned with your values, their values personally are aligned so that there's some synergy there. Then you're leading by example but you're also giving them that opportunity and that's where often breaks down and I'll give you an example.

Spencer Horn
33:10 - 33:36
I actually have a client and I'm going to let them listen to this and they'll know who I'm talking about, you won't. But the CEO has empowered everyone to, and I've talked to him about this and so listening to this, he's going to know that I'm talking about him. He says, I want everyone to be empowered to make decisions. and to help the company grow.

Spencer Horn
33:36 - 33:37
And

Chip Higgins
33:37 - 33:37
they are

Spencer Horn
33:37 - 33:47
growing so fast. I mean, like 40%, even in this economy right now, growing like crazy. And they have a mandate to growing faster. The challenges that...

Spencer Horn
33:48 - 34:20
The talent of the staff is not up to the level of growth that they need. And so what happens is the empowerment breaks down because things don't happen as quickly or as effectively or as perfectly as that leader wants them to do it. And so what happens is they end up jumping in and actually going back to the fission model, even though they're preaching fusion, right, Christian? So that's kind of what you're talking about.

Spencer Horn
34:20 - 34:51
We're preaching fusion, but then when things get tough and cash is strapped because we're doing all this expansion and things aren't happening as quickly as we want, the new departments aren't, cash flowing as quickly as we want, now we're panicked and we go back to command and control. Yep. And the toxicity returns and then people are like, oh yeah, it's not real. So this is the fight, right?

Spencer Horn
34:51 - 35:01
The challenge of getting that energy and doing it right. And you said that most of the problems aren't cash, it's energy.

Chip Higgins
35:01 - 35:19
Well, I'll say, you know, for a company growing at 40% a year, it's cash. Right? And I would say, you know, energy is a close second when you're moving at that rate. I mean, it's like, you know, probably eight times the national average of growth or more, you know.

Chip Higgins
35:20 - 35:33
So, yeah, I think, I wish there were a perfect answer to it. I have a couple of thoughts that I'd like to share if you're open to that. I think that,

Spencer Horn
35:36 - 35:40
First of all, you know, there's- And by the way, we're aligned with you. We're just trying to solve the problem together. I

Christian Napier
35:42 - 36:02
feel the kinship here. Exactly. Just to chime in on that a little bit, if I may, Spencer, what you're referring to really is instability in the reaction. And what happens is if you have a fission reaction and it's not controlled, then it just explodes, right?

Christian Napier
36:02 - 36:10
Like, so you have to have, You have to have things in place to keep the reaction controlled. Otherwise,

Chip Higgins
36:10 - 36:10
you're going to

Christian Napier
36:10 - 36:33
have a meltdown. I mean, that's great. So your organization may go China syndrome on you if you don't have controls in place to keep things stable enough to harness the energy instead of the energy basically taking over and ruining everything. That's what kind of came to my mind on the fishing part.

Christian Napier
36:33 - 36:37
I don't know, Chip, if that makes any sense.

Chip Higgins
36:37 - 37:18
It does. And what I was going to say, there are a few things that I had on my mind, but I think one of the big ones is to the talent pool that you brought up, Spencer, I think that while we can be Pollyannish in our thinking about, you know, how people can get energized, you know, there are business realities about profitability and things like that, that still guide us to that structure that Christian is talking about, that everybody has a goal that they need to meet, and they're empowered within that goal to some degree. And people that are growing and proving more and more, I think, you know, we, we trust them more and more as we go through.

Chip Higgins
37:18 - 37:47
But I think that everybody's got to have a sense of like, we're, you know, we're giving you the responsibility to add this value, this type of value to the organization. And, you know, we're trusting you up to this point, you know. And I think about Pinnacle, that bank I talked about, you know, they have, they have a wild culture. And, you know, the way they did it is just to say, look, you know, we want you to be present with people about what their greatest needs are and feel free to spend money on them.

Chip Higgins
37:47 - 38:10
And, you know, everybody's got a wild budget. You know, it could be $25 or I've seen people do things that cost $500, but we're counting on you to make the right decision about that having an impact for the company. So, you know, I think the scalability of responsibility as people are growing is really important. And I also think that, you know, I'm a big believer in my book.

Chip Higgins
38:10 - 38:40
I mentioned this, and it's, you know, probably my top 5 favorite books, the 4 Disciplines of Execution, that, you know, everybody has a goal. Everybody has a goal, and everybody's getting together frequently to talk about how they're performing. Because, you know, you can, you can have a lovely culture with no results. I mean, it's like, so when people come together and design that, and they know what they're being asked to do, I think the human heart, to me, most people rise to the occasion.

Chip Higgins
38:40 - 39:28
But there's, there's one thing that has to be lurking in the background, in the culture, is the acceptance of some level of failure toward a big goal. And I think the, the failing-forward mentality of not being perfect, and having, you know, having systems to acknowledge that there's a defect or, you know, there's a slip-up, and just showing people how, how that particular instance violated some part of the vision values mission or the mores of the company. I mean, I think all those are really important, but I'm really glad you brought that up, Christian, because you've got to have a structure that's hung on it is accountability for the whole system to work.

Chip Higgins
39:28 - 40:03
And you can't just turn people loose and say, well, you're empowered to do this or that. And it's a recipe for failure. But I do know that My experience anyway, without a lot of academic research on this, my experience is that when you're making the effort for this to happen, that you're making the effort at the fusion environment and people at the point at which they really believe you, that you're empowering them to do things, the output is manifold of what you would expect the way people react to it.

Chip Higgins
40:04 - 40:30
I mean, I've been in merged cultures where, you know, you had a fusion environment hitting up against a fission environment that took probably three times as long for that mindset to take place as it did the systems integration. And, you know, people have to believe it and know that they have a place to land softly when they don't chin the bar, but you're in it with them for the long term. So, I feel like I'm rambling on a little bit, but I hope I've gotten to the heart of what

Spencer Horn
40:30 - 40:51
you're talking about. Back to this example, what happens when you have a situation where you've empowered your people and you've put those guardrails, yet they make a decision that you wouldn't make? as the leader that's

Chip Higgins
40:51 - 41:04
empowered them. And then how does that- I'm sorry, it probably feels like I'm overreacting to that, but it's a real life scenario. It is a real life scenario and it happens all the

Spencer Horn
41:04 - 41:04
time.

Chip Higgins
41:04 - 41:04
It's funny that

Spencer Horn
41:05 - 41:09
it happened. It's like, all right, I've empowered my people, they made the wrong choice.

Chip Higgins
41:09 - 41:47
Dang it. The CEO's door was wide open, very flat organization, and you could go and talk to him about anything and he'd listen to you very thoughtfully and he'd say, well, I'm empowering you to do whatever you want. That's not something I would do. And so, you know, in that, in that culture, what I thought was just the most beautiful thing is like the obsession with values reviews and people operating within the lanes that have been defined by the company that, you know, before a performance review ever went out, it was

Chip Higgins
41:47 - 42:02
locked down evaluating people and how they're living out the values of the company. And that could take many, many forms. But you didn't want a bad values review. I mean, even if you were high on results was one of the values, you're doing work that's accretive.

Chip Higgins
42:03 - 42:13
Like if you failed at partnership or one of the intrinsic core values of balance or whatever it was, like that was not good. I think those are part of the guardrails you're talking about,

Spencer Horn
42:13 - 42:15
right Christian?

Chip Higgins
42:15 - 42:47
Yeah, so there's, you know, there's a system for the values that bring it to life, everybody. And I say this in the book, it's kind of embedded in the book, but I think it's a really big deal, is that I think people sense when they're in the workplace, it's making them a better person. And, you know, when these values take root, and they notice them becoming more, you know, relational or operating with a higher level of integrity or whatever, I mean, it's more than any salary could benefit. Like, they're showing up better in every aspect of their life with their family, with, you know, the community or whatever.

Chip Higgins
42:47 - 42:49
Like, you're building people at that point.

Spencer Horn
42:49 - 43:05
You know, I see that, and that's the key of energy. And I tell a story, Chip, Christian knows my mentor. You know, I remember him telling me, Spencer says, I don't care how long it takes you to do your job. If it takes you 20 hours a week, Fine.

Spencer Horn
43:05 - 43:21
Now I ended up taking me 80 hours a week, but I did it. You got your hopes up. Yeah. But the point is, is he, he was, he was, he had high standards and he created the, you know, that, that inspiration, that motivation and empowerment.

Spencer Horn
43:21 - 43:26
He truly did. He made himself available. He was a great mentor. I would do anything.

Spencer Horn
43:26 - 43:41
I would work so hard because I, I was excited. I was, I was learning, I was growing and I wanted to please him. So it wasn't a ball and chain around my ankle. It was voluntary.

Chip Higgins
43:41 - 43:41
I was

Spencer Horn
43:41 - 43:42
excited.

Chip Higgins
43:42 - 43:47
Yeah, it's an opportunity to be more. I believe in

Christian Napier
43:47 - 44:18
that. So one question I've got for you, I want to, well, I actually have to, I'll take one at a time. I'll ask a question and then I'll ask one more and then I will probably be done because we will have to get to the lightning round and Spencer might have some more questions. So my first question has to do with the point that you made, which I think is a really important point about the amount of energy that is required to move mass.

Christian Napier
44:19 - 44:39
You also talked about inertia. So, you know, coming back to the physics principles, when that energy runs out, as you mentioned, you know, more organizations run out of energy before they run out of money. You know, from a physics perspective, what you're really describing is entropy, right? Like everything just kind of settled into.

Christian Napier
44:39 - 45:25
And so, you know, taking into account all of these principles that you have shared with us today, You know, what is perhaps the one thing, and I know it's probably oversimplifying, that can keep your organization from falling into this entropy, right? Because you mentioned you have inertia, but eventually it slows and then you end up stationary, right? So, you know, maybe you can address a little bit, you know, what one key thing would you recommend to organizations to avoid, you know, falling into

Chip Higgins
45:25 - 45:25
or

Christian Napier
45:25 - 45:26
succumbing to entropy?

Chip Higgins
45:28 - 45:48
Do I have enough time to say two things on that, Christian? Sure. The first thing I'll say that's very physics-y. is this idea about wave theory and how waves cancel each other out.

Chip Higgins
45:49 - 46:27
And I think that being obsessed with bad energy and toxicity in your company is a really good place to start because most of us are going to be in a traditional kind of org chart type of environment. And the avoidance of problems that cancel out any positive energy coming from the top is a daily. reality for, I would say, 90% plus of the companies. It's just who's mad, who feels mistreated, unseen, what's the turf wars going on?

Chip Higgins
46:27 - 46:45
You've got to be all over that and you've got to put teeth in it. People do culture surveys, but what do they do about it at the end of the year? Is there corrective action or these things? Just be aware that, you know, for the highest vibrational fields that you can create, that there's the possibility of a negative energy field that cancels the whole thing out.

Chip Higgins
46:46 - 47:00
So don't, don't run from problems. And, you know, I recommend in my book, Crucial Conversations, another, another one of my top 5. I mean, you've got to, you've got to build conflict resolution into the, into the organization. I think that that's a really big part.

Chip Higgins
47:00 - 47:32
But I think that, you The upside, the positive action to take is to make sure that you are totally attuned and personally owning this vibrational field of what you're doing every day. When you wake up, it's so easy to get into making underwear over, I'm affecting the personal self-image of women all around the world. I talk at length about Spanx in my book. I think it's one of the best stories of all time in entrepreneurship.

Chip Higgins
47:32 - 48:14
But it's, you know, the clarity of the people that you're helping and why you're doing the work, the purpose of it. You know, a lot of people are passionate, but people that are purposeful and consistently on a mission to help people, That's your starting point for the day. And as an organization, I feel like what one of your biggest responsibilities is, is making sure that comes to life for people every day, you know, whether it's through customer stories, acknowledging, you know, actions that were just kind of beyond the standard that you set for the company. I mean, these types of things, like people need to know that they're living in this vibrational field and adding to it.

Chip Higgins
48:14 - 48:50
And I think most of the time that will carry you where I've seen that the obstacle is too great is usually, you know, for the most well-intentioned company would be the unforeseen. And, you know, there's a lot in my book about planning for multiple scenarios, and it's hard for small businesses to do, but You know, when something like COVID hits or something like we have three days where the Internet's down, you're going to really know how deep the energy well is at that point. But I would say, by and large, just reminding people all the time about why they're there, what they're doing and how they're adding to it.

Chip Higgins
48:50 - 48:55
I mean, that's really the energy equation to me.

Christian Napier
48:57 - 48:59
OK, can I quickly get to my last question?

Chip Higgins
48:59 - 48:59
Of course.

Christian Napier
49:00 - 49:11
It's all yours. So it actually just touched on something that you said, which is sometimes we don't have all the answers. We have unforeseen events. You mentioned a tolerance for failure.

Christian Napier
49:11 - 49:59
One of the interesting kind of linkages to physics in this realm is that although physics has revealed much about how the universe works, there are still questions that are left unanswered. And so there isn't that one book that can tell you the answers to every question. And so when it comes to kind of the physics formula, what recommendations would you give to organizations who find themselves perhaps in uncharted territory or seeing questions that they can't really find the answers to. Maybe there's, you know, they're still struggling to understand it.

Christian Napier
49:59 - 50:14
What lessons can we learn from physics in that realm? Because there are lots of ongoing debates about you know some of these unanswered questions, you know Quantum gravity or people are still trying

Chip Higgins
50:14 - 50:40
radius signals from 80 million light-years away like we realize maybe it's different somewhere It's like it doesn't hold up in every scenario, but I think that's a big part of the The conversation I had with my friend when I wrote the book, who's a Caltech physicist, was what we know about science is for today. And the role of scientists is to constantly push on the edges. And I think, you know, in some ways we may be on the edge of something with AI.

Chip Higgins
50:41 - 51:18
I don't know, you know, how it fundamentally changes business practices, but I think that the kind of the bell curve of the model of what businesses are trying to do is still very consistent. You know, the methods that we use to get there may be a little bit different, but fundamentally, you know, if you don't, if you don't have a clear problem that you're trying to solve with the unique solution, that's where that's where every business starts. And the rest of it is really about execution. So I've got a I don't want to oversell myself because I'm an amateur at this, but it's an informed amateurism.

Chip Higgins
51:18 - 51:32
I feel like I talked to some really well-educated people about it. I think the book lays it out very well. The fundamental principles about building mass and velocity are really important. And I've also got anybody that wants to reach out to me.

Chip Higgins
51:32 - 51:47
I've written probably 15 or 20 other physics-based articles about how things intersect with business, including entropy. I've got things on entropy, gyroscopes. Did this

Spencer Horn
51:47 - 51:49
all start with that train set or was there something else?

Chip Higgins
51:51 - 52:11
It started with fear of my physics nun, you know, so that's where it started. But I just wrote one on buoyancy that was one of my favorites to write. But I just, it is, you know, for a lot of people, it's a metaphor. I live in the camp of universal laws and how much I've seen this happen.

Chip Higgins
52:11 - 52:25
that there's some universality to it that you can pick up by just looking around. I think that was one of the beauties of the book that I liked is like people understand momentum. I mean, whether you're watching sports or your car sliding down the driveway on ice or whatever, we get it.

Spencer Horn
52:27 - 52:34
Speaking of sports, you know, Christian and I are big, big sports fan. I don't know. Is that Larry Bird I see behind you?

Chip Higgins
52:34 - 52:40
Yeah, that's myself. That's my Celtic wall there. I got Larry Bird and Bill Russell. Yep.

Chip Higgins
52:40 - 52:46
Larry Bird's dropping one over the doctor there. That's what it looked like. I actually had to take

Spencer Horn
52:46 - 52:48
my camera to get a little closer and I'm like, I think

Chip Higgins
52:52 - 53:03
that's Larry Bird. I'm an old Celtics fan. I don't keep up with sports the way I used to, but I lived and breathed the Celtics. John Havlicek is by far my all-time sports hero.

Spencer Horn
53:04 - 53:11
Well, and Christian does a lot of consulting in the sports world with the International Olympic Committee. A

Christian Napier
53:12 - 53:12
lot.

Spencer Horn
53:13 - 53:15
Has for what, about 20 years now, Christian?

Christian Napier
53:16 - 53:21
Yeah, it's been 25 years, actually. That's a big momentum field. Don't get old.

Spencer Horn
53:24 - 53:35
Yeah, he's been working to help bring the Olympics here to Salt Lake City in, what is it now, 2033? 2034. Wow. We're going to be old dudes, man.

Spencer Horn
53:38 - 53:45
So, um, well, let's do this. Let's do the, let's do the lightning round. Are you ready? Yeah.

Spencer Horn
53:45 - 54:09
Listen, I had so many more questions, but here's, here's the thing for those of you who are listening to this, this, uh, this episode, so much of what I was going to ask was already embedded in. in what was told, just listen very carefully or listen again. And there's so much information in there, but okay, here we go. Fission or fusion, what kind of leader were you early in your career?

Spencer Horn
54:10 - 54:21
Fission. One word to describe an empowered team? Excelling. What drains energy faster, micromanaging or unclear vision?

Chip Higgins
54:23 - 54:26
Unclear vision.

Spencer Horn
54:27 - 54:28
Most underrated leadership skill?

Chip Higgins
54:30 - 54:30
Listening.

Spencer Horn
54:32 - 54:34
What's the best onboarding experience you've ever seen?

Chip Higgins
54:37 - 54:39
Pinnacle Financial Partners, The Wall.

Spencer Horn
54:39 - 54:49
So remember, that onboarding is where you can really integrate that vision and everything that we've been talking about to create that energy. What's more powerful, momentum or motivation?

Chip Higgins
54:51 - 54:52
Momentum.

Spencer Horn
54:54 - 55:10
Book you recommend, you've already recommended two, Crucial Conversations and the Four Disciplines of Execution, two great books, but you've got a bunch behind you. I can't see what they are, but what's your number one besides your own book that you recommend for most leaders?

Chip Higgins
55:11 - 55:20
The book, I mean, John Maxwell has multiple books, but I go back to my very first book. It's still my favorite, Leadership is an Art by Max Dupree.

Spencer Horn
55:21 - 55:33
Yes. What's a sign that a team is working in fusion and not fission? Energy. If you could coach your younger self, what would you say in one sentence?

Spencer Horn
55:33 - 55:41
Learn leadership. So finish this sentence, Chip. Great teams don't wait for energy, they? Produce it.

Christian Napier
55:44 - 55:53
Christian? That was awesome. You just snap those things off like this. Chip, it's been an honor to have you with us today.

Christian Napier
55:53 - 56:03
We really appreciate the time. Please tell us where people can go get your book, and if they want to connect with you to

Chip Higgins
56:05 - 56:05
see how you

Christian Napier
56:05 - 56:08
can potentially help them, what's the best way for them to do so?

Chip Higgins
56:09 - 56:17
Well, first of all, it's an honor for me to talk to two really smart people. I thoroughly enjoyed this hour. It's gone by so fast. So thank you for that.

Chip Higgins
56:18 - 56:32
My book is on Amazon, The BizX Way, Powering Your Small Business to Maximum Momentum. And it's hardback, Kindle and audio version. So you have a lot of options there. That'll be one way to access it.

Chip Higgins
56:32 - 57:03
My business website is vizics.com. I have a personal website for public speaking, chiphiggins.com. And I do want to say one thing before you hang up in your lane, Christian of AI, is the thing I'm most excited about right now in my practice is my agent. I built an agent for my book called Vizics on Demand that is a I think the buzzword in the industry is a contextualized experience.

Chip Higgins
57:03 - 57:29
But anybody that, you know, reads the book or doesn't want to read it and just want to find out about it, you can drop in this agent live and just live in this momentum world, ask it whatever you want. And it's really trained to give you an action plan. You know, whatever part of the business that you're working on, it's going to be very conversational and human. And it's very different, in my mind, than ChatGPT, which is, I think it's a lot more information and resourcing.

Chip Higgins
57:29 - 57:40
But you can find that agent, you know, an overview of that on Bizzix.com under Bizzix On Demand. Please email me. Email me anytime, chip.higgins at Bizzix.com. I love talking to people.

Chip Higgins
57:40 - 57:50
Will you spell Bizzix? B-I-Z-Z-I-C-S. It's the physics of Bizzix. And that was something I learned from Sarah Blakely on a podcast.

Chip Higgins
57:50 - 58:04
I heard her talking about naming Spanx. And she said that she had learned from somebody that the ideal brand name had no more than seven letters, usually had a double letter. If you can make it buzz or click, you really had it made. So that's my Bizzix name.

Chip Higgins
58:06 - 58:06
Good information.

Christian Napier
58:08 - 58:20
That's awesome, Chip. Thank you for that. And we'll make sure to put links in the show notes so people can find your website. And yeah, I'm very eager to go out and try the AI chatbot.

Chip Higgins
58:20 - 58:20
Spencer, you've

Christian Napier
58:20 - 58:32
been helping organizations build high-performing teams for decades. What's the best way for people to reach out to you to learn more about how you could potentially help them?

Spencer Horn
58:32 - 58:50
contact me on LinkedIn. Say, hey, if you want a team diagnostic that we can just do a quick, where are you at with your fission versus fusion? Just reach out to me and we'll set that up for you. Christian, how can people find you?

Spencer Horn
58:50 - 59:01
I'm connecting you with other people. I don't know if you got a hold of that person I connected to, but I love to introduce people to my friend Christian because he's so brilliant. How can they find you?

Christian Napier
59:01 - 59:22
I'll just go for LinkedIn as well. It's super easy. Just look for Christian Napier on LinkedIn and happy to connect with folks and We echo your feeling here, Chip, that this hour has just flown by with a tremendous amount of momentum and energy. And we thank you so much for joining us and sharing your insights.

Christian Napier
59:22 - 59:31
It's been fantastic. And listeners, viewers, thank you as well. We appreciate you. Please like and subscribe to our podcast.

Christian Napier
59:31 - 59:31
We'll catch you again

Spencer Horn
59:31 - 59:35
soon. And hang on for just a second, Chip, when we finish here.