Teamwork - A Better Way

Christian Napier
00:14 - 00:24
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Teamwork, A Better Way. I'm Christian Napier, and I am joined by my world-traveling co-host, Spencer Horn. Spencer, how you doing?

Spencer Horn
00:24 - 00:33
Good, if you can consider, you know, Midwest, kind of Eastern time zone as world-traveling, but I am so well. How are you? Happy just

Christian Napier
00:33 - 00:41
after Easter. Yeah, happy Easter to you, too. So, where did you spend your Easter, and where have you been traveling to?

Spencer Horn
00:42 - 01:13
I was all week from Monday through Friday, we flew into Detroit and then drove down to Toledo, over to Cleveland, Kirtland. We were in Cuyahoga National Park, Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Jan and I you know my wife we try to wherever we are. We try to visit national parks, and we've gotten to 25 so far But you know what there's like 63 of them. I think so we've got this We've got this goal to visit them all Well,

Christian Napier
01:13 - 01:14
that's

Spencer Horn
01:14 - 01:14
amazing.

Christian Napier
01:15 - 01:19
I never did I've been to Cleveland a lot of times, but I never did go to the Cuyahoga National

Spencer Horn
01:19 - 01:21
Park It's literally just 10. I mean it's just right

Christian Napier
01:21 - 01:27
down really close and Yeah, shame on me for not playing.

Spencer Horn
01:28 - 01:32
That's right. You are a hardworking man, for sure. So how

Christian Napier
01:32 - 01:34
about your Easter? How was your Easter weekend?

Spencer Horn
01:34 - 01:49
Wonderful. It was very quiet. This year, most of the kids were with the in-laws, and so it was Jana and Sam and me, and we were quiet. I sang in the choir on Sunday. That was nice.

Christian Napier
01:50 - 02:33
Oh, I should have been there. Our Easter was quiet as well. And so we had some family over, but not all family for the same reasons that you just mentioned. And it was a lot of fun. My wife made sourdough waffles, which are amazing and super, super tasty. Uh, also, uh, we should mention, um, the sad news that happened earlier this morning with the Pope, uh, Pope Francis passing away. And so, uh, our condolences to, to all of our friends who are mourning, uh, the Pope's passing and, and we hope for a smooth transition, uh, over to the next Pope.

Christian Napier
02:34 - 02:49
Thank you for that. Yeah. Uh, All right, let's introduce our guest, because we've been waiting, and she's been waiting to speak with us, and we're super excited to have her on. Spencer, why don't you go ahead and introduce her to our viewers and listeners?

Spencer Horn
02:50 - 03:34
Absolutely. We're really excited today to have you, Teresa. This is Teresa L. Bassett, who's the CEO of The Diamond Group. and she is a powerhouse entrepreneur. She's a business strategist and she's really focused on revenue growth with her agency and she's got over 20 years of experience in business ownership and leadership and she's dedicated her career to helping business owners build sustainable success and finally getting off of the exhausting revenue rollercoaster, so many ups and downs, right Teresa? And she is the author of a new book called Up Level, Sprint Your Way to the Next Level in Your Life and Business.

Spencer Horn
03:35 - 04:17
So Teresa breaks down exactly how entrepreneurs can create lasting momentum by implementing systems that eliminate feast or famine income cycles, and that's really the sweet spot that she focused on. And she's developed this 90-day sprint formula that transforms how businesses operate, scale, and thrive. And that's her goal, is really to empower organizations, business owners in particularly, with clarity, confidence and practical steps needed to shift from just unpredictability in their revenue cycles and to more reliability. And, and she is really today, we, we asked her to focus in on how teams can, can really add to that stability.

Spencer Horn
04:17 - 04:50
I mean, because that's, that's where that stability comes from is hopefully working together in, in a way that that can create that stability for the organization. So our focus today is building teams that thrive, culture talent, and really bringing your expertise, your unique expertise in what you do to making teams stronger. So tell us how you got into this business. We were talking earlier offline, you're from Detroit, you now live in the great state of North Carolina, and you're helping companies. Where did your experience come from?

Speaker 4
04:51 - 05:37
Yeah, thank you so much. Well, thanks again, you guys, for this opportunity. This is one of my very favorite topics. You guys are nailing it. And I got emotional there for just a second, Christian, when you said that about Pope Francis passing away, because I didn't know that until just when you said that. And so, yes, my heart goes out to those who are grieving. And wow, that's impactful. Talking about inspiration and sustainability. Um, but, uh, yeah, my experience, you know, I, I became an entrepreneur, um, several decades ago, leaped off from my corporate gig into coaching and created a coaching agency in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Theresa Bassett
05:37 - 06:21
And then about 14 years ago, linked arms with my husband, Kelly, and have been building our sales and marketing agency ever since. And it's just been amazing. My background in Fortune 500 sales and marketing transferred over into this industry. And it's been a remarkable ride. And as you talked about, I love helping create strong, resilient organizations. You know, only about 6% of small businesses in America get over the seven-figure threshold. which means a lot of people are working really hard to create the sustainable systems. And that's what I get up every day working to help people do, right?

Theresa Bassett
06:21 - 06:56
Because this isn't just about sales and marketing, although one of the primary marketing bridges that they have to cross over is this team and talent recruitment bridge, right? You You have to convince people to link arms with you and to build your vision with you and to really create from that place of vision. And so that requires, you know, a team orientation. And you're absolutely right. Like the sustainability comes from being able to link arms with other great folks. and build something truly remarkable together. So I love this topic. I'm excited to talk about it.

Theresa Bassett
06:56 - 07:16
And my background across corporate and then in small business, you know, both on my own as a solopreneur and then with my husband in both scenarios, I've been building teams, developing teams for, you know, almost 25 years now. I don't even feel old enough to say that, but

Spencer Horn
07:17 - 07:18
It goes fast, doesn't it? It goes so fast. It

Theresa Bassett
07:19 - 07:22
goes fast. Yeah, I've got several gray hairs in here to prove it.

Spencer Horn
07:22 - 08:02
I don't see them. Do you see them, Christian? Nope, I can't see any. Well, Teresa, so I'm really interested about what's magical about the seven-figure threshold once you get there, but maybe you can answer that. But after you talk about this idea of recruiting, you talked about Recruiting and really energizing recruiting is something that you focus on. How do you become a talent magnet to get the best talent? Because obviously, we want to be able to compete in the space that we operate in, in our vertical, so that we can get to that seven-figure and over, obviously, threshold.

Spencer Horn
08:03 - 08:08
And we need good people to do that. So what's your formula for being that talent magnet?

Theresa Bassett
08:08 - 08:49
Yeah, it's an awesome question. Well, I think it's important to begin with the end in mind. And here's the thing, we attract what we are, not what we want, right? So really to attract talent, we have to first reel it in and get remarkably clear on, you know, the organizational values, the personal values that we bring to the table and the kind of organization we're really seeking to create. Really, it all comes from, it stems from that place of vision, and the clarity around those values, and then being able to be that as the business owner, and then bring it, you know, through the culture, bring it through the brand.

Theresa Bassett
08:50 - 09:27
And so, you know, this is, it is a marketing exercise, if you think about it at its core, because if you don't know who you are, at your core in the culture, then how are you supposed to communicate that out? How is the messaging supposed to be clear? And if the messaging isn't clear, how are you attracting those people that you ideally want to be attracting? So clarity is really king. in this equation. And, you know, and, and we have to walk the talk, we have to be the thing that we're trying to attract in our team.

Theresa Bassett
09:27 - 10:10
And then, you know, it really is there, there is a, there is a magic formula in it, because when we really start to amplify that piece, the clarity, and really start to embrace the beingness of that. It's remarkable, Spencer, how people will find you. People will find your brand. You know, here at the Diamond Group, I mean, we get almost 10 resumes a week. I mean, people seeking to work with us. And, you know, I only wish I could grow and scale faster. Honestly, we have such a thriving organization and culture. I absolutely love recruiting and developing people within this organization.

Theresa Bassett
10:10 - 10:52
And I feel like it's one of the gifts of entrepreneurship that we get to extend, you know, an opportunity to make a meaningful living, tap into a system that, you know, not everybody wants to create their own system. They want the, in many cases, stability and security that comes from being part of a bigger organization. And, and, and so we as entrepreneurs here in the business community, I mean, we get the opportunity, the true gift of providing that kind of system for folks. And, and so I think it's a remarkable gift. And that clarity that we're really, you know, behooves us to create is super important.

Theresa Bassett
10:52 - 11:01
I mean, it is mission-critical. And so if we're feeling sluggish about our organization, or we're feeling unclear, we're going to attract sluggish and unclear.

Christian Napier
11:16 - 12:15
All right. Spencer with a sounder. It works. I've got a question about what you were talking about here, Teresa. And I'm curious about how you've seen this workplace evolve over the last five years. I mean, you know, before COVID hit, everything was pretty much we all went into the office all the time and we did our thing. Then COVID hits, we all go remote. And then we see these wild swings from quiet quitting and resignation to big layoffs. And now we're seeing significant layoffs in the public sector, which usually traditionally was immune to this. And so the environment for people right now is pretty chaotic in terms of hiring and recruitment and retention.

Christian Napier
12:15 - 13:00
And so, and then we've got the advent of AI, which, you know, people are a little nervous about potentially displacing jobs. So in this chaotic environment, what do you recommend for organizations to do to make sure, aside from, you know, yes, you live your culture, it's a reflection of who you are, and people are attracted to who you are, and so on and so forth. But beyond that, you know, what are some strategies that you recommend in today's environment, organizations put in place, leaders put in place, to both recruit and attract, but also retain their talent in this really uncertain chaotic time.

Theresa Bassett
13:01 - 13:39
Yeah, that's a great question. And I know that there are a lot of people impacted across multiple sectors. And I think we can probably almost say that at any given time, right? Like, like where people are always talking about how this is, this is as chaotic as it's ever gotten. And probably if we went back 50 years, we would hear that. And if we went back 50 years, you know, we do in business, if you watch swings in culture, we do need to be aware of the changing times. And for any business owner who's been at it for a while, you know that you have to stay relevant and stay in touch with what's going on for your workforce.

Theresa Bassett
13:40 - 14:19
And I think one of the things that we see is that, you know, with the newer generation coming into the workforce, especially, Gen Z is changing the way people are looking at work-life blend and balance. And I think to your point, Christian, coming out of COVID, right, everybody went home, they were working in their yoga pants for years, and now there's this shift back to the office and there's some resistance in it. We found that the hybrid work schedule works really well to help create, blend, and support people where they're at. You know, we have almost a 50-50 split in office and at home time.

Theresa Bassett
14:19 - 15:05
Not everybody's able to, you know, create that in their culture. But of course, with remote work of any kind being part of the culture, you've got to get a little bit, you know, got to think outside the box a little bit in ways to keep people really engaged in the culture. I think it's really important to, you know, have a, top-down mentality in terms of helping people see that, you know, this messaging, I guess what I mean is it has to be reinforced from the top, but for them to understand that they are creating the culture, that this, that culture is not a top-down formula, but that it really is on them to engage in the strategies, right?

Theresa Bassett
15:06 - 15:52
It's not just, you know, lunches in the office or remote time or PGO, it's how are we treating each other within the workforce and how are we helping people. adjust to these changing times. So we as employers, we really need to be in tune with what drives people and what helps people be well within the culture. You know, over 86% of the people that leave jobs leave because of their managers. And, you know, we think it's about pay, it's about benefits, it's about environment. It's really because they feel, you know, that they aren't being seen aren't being heard, aren't being understood.

Theresa Bassett
15:52 - 16:32
And a lot of times there's just a mismatch or a misalignment in their management team. And so it really behooves us as part of this adjusting to chaotic times to look at our management strategies and how our managers within our team really staying in touch with what really matters with the workforce. And I think that that is a key element, Christian, when you talk about helping to stabilize in chaotic times, our management team, our leadership team, and helping everyone in the organization understand what leadership really looks like is a really key feature in that.

Spencer Horn
16:35 - 17:16
Yeah. I mean, I'm torn because I want to build on this, but I don't want to also move on too quickly from the recruiting part. because you talked about, first of all, creating clarity about your message and your brand and your culture, but then how do you find people that align with that? Because you can create this, you can become this great organization. And yes, people are going to find you, but how do you make sure they're the right fit? What's your process for aligning the candidate with you as an organization? Because then that will lead back to what you were just talking about, people leaving managers.

Spencer Horn
17:17 - 17:23
I mean, if the managers embody and believe in the culture that you espouse, that there should be alignment.

Theresa Bassett
17:24 - 17:36
No, absolutely. Well, so back to that beginning with the end in mind. So if those core values are not just words on a piece of paper, I mean, I see a lot of stale core values, right, across the

Christian Napier
17:36 - 17:37
business

Theresa Bassett
17:37 - 18:10
environment. Those core values need to really be, that's part of your DNA, right? These are values that your team is really embracing. It's not just corporate speak on a poster. Those core values then get planted in your job descriptions. And so right there, when you're actually posting for a position, you're telling people what you stand for. And I actually give candidates an opportunity to rank themselves on a scale of 1 to 5. How aligned are they with these core values? And then those same core values are brought into the conversation during the hiring process and recruiting process.

Theresa Bassett
18:10 - 18:17
And so we set up a three-step gauntlet, if you will, for hiring. because we're trying

Spencer Horn
18:17 - 18:20
to gamers are gonna love that they love the gauntlet right come

Theresa Bassett
18:20 - 19:07
on gotta get through the gauntlet right so we love to see how people um show up on the phone show up on zoom show up in person when appropriate see them in various settings um we talk about those core values at every single interview and so those interviews are held for different purposes right one is for mindset right, culture fit. One is skill set, that's really with the manager of that department, really to assess capabilities, you know, right down to, you know, technical skills, trained capabilities, but then also the overarching mindset and attitude of the candidate and getting different people's perspectives on those interviews.

Theresa Bassett
19:07 - 19:22
And so to your point, it does increase the stickability of a candidate, right? If they've gotten through this gauntlet and they've talked to three different people in three different modalities, you're going to uncover a lot of information about those people

Christian Napier
19:22 - 19:22
and

Theresa Bassett
19:22 - 19:38
really, really start to wrestle with some of these core value propositions and go, okay, well, how did you show up? You know, one of our core values is buoyancy and buoyancy means to me, you know, not just being fun and flexible, but not making mountains out of molehills. Right. I

Spencer Horn
19:38 - 19:44
love that core value. I've never heard buoyancy as a core value before. Have you Christian? I like that. No, I've never heard of it. I think it's awesome.

Theresa Bassett
19:45 - 19:49
Yeah. Well, you know, I'm in a coastal market, so I got water on the brain.

Spencer Horn
19:50 - 20:32
So, so, so that those are, I love your answers. And I, I'm actually very aligned with, with what you're saying. And that matches a lot with what I do with, with my clients. So I love that. So let's go back to your comment about 86% of people leave people as it ties back into Christian's question about creating an environment where people feel safe. I believe one of the things that you said in your answer is that people will love their work when they feel valued. One of my heroes, Clayton Christensen, a former professor at Harvard Business School, so often we get it wrong about the motivators.

Spencer Horn
20:32 - 21:18
It's money or culture. Culture's important, but he found that they really need two things, and he's not the only one that has uncovered this is they need to feel like they're valued, that they're making a difference, that they're contributing to the betterment of the world through what they do in the organization. That's number one. But number two I think really fits into, I'm guessing, I'm gonna throw in this idea that I see from you. You have this idea of progress equals happiness philosophy. And here's what he said is number two. If they feel like they're being challenged and are in an environment where they're actually growing and not stagnant.

Spencer Horn
21:19 - 21:53
So if they feel like they're doing the same things over and over, we as humans literally are designed to grow. We are designed to learn even until the day we die. The whole idea that you can't teach an old dog new tricks is a lie. We have neuroplasticity until we die. Now, are there people who choose to reject that and just want to stay, you know, comfortable where they are? Yes. But most people want to be challenged. And I think that comes If there's continually progress, that means there's new clients, new opportunities, new promotions, new positions, doing things that are outside of your comfort zone.

Spencer Horn
21:54 - 21:56
Am I on track with your philosophy? 100%.

Theresa Bassett
21:58 - 22:44
I couldn't have said it better myself, Spencer. I was actually, you know, you took the words right out of my mouth because I do I know. I love that because I do see that we are wired for progress, for growth and development as human beings. And so, yes, I think the organizations that we plug into need to be similarly wired. And so what I've seen is that It's important that that happens on every level. So the individual needs to feel like they're progressing. The departments they're in need to feel like they're progressing. The organization as a whole needs to be on its own progress track.

Theresa Bassett
22:45 - 23:32
And so those three different levels continuously happening absolutely helps with retention. And I think there's a word even, you know, not just feeling valued, but people will need to feel like they belong to something. Like there's a sense of belonging when you're part of a team where not only you feel valued, but you're continuously progressing together. So the individuals are on their own track, but the department and the organization is on its own development track. And when you can get these things to happen simultaneously, And you can give people a breadcrumb trail of development. That progress equals happiness formula, that really just came naturally from, I noticed myself.

Theresa Bassett
23:33 - 24:12
And I was like, yeah, I get bored. I mean, if I don't feel like I'm progressing, I get bored. And every corporate job I ever had, I mean, I was always the one challenging my managers. I mean, I can count on three fingers the number of good managers I had over the years. But the ones that I remember, Being you know particularly align with me with where the ones that were challenging me were holding me accountable to the next best version of myself. and me feeling a part and belonging to a team that was moving towards something, a common vision, a goal.

Theresa Bassett
24:12 - 24:56
And so that's a lot to pull off as a small business owner. I'm not going to lie. I mean, it takes mindfulness and intentionality. And if you think people are just going to show up continuously day in and day out on this treadmill and stay engaged and stay happy without you putting some mindful intention into how to create that track, right, how to energize that track, I think people are remiss in allowing that to chance. I feel so honored when you play the music. I'm like, oh my gosh, I gotta come up with another golden nugget that I get the music for.

Christian Napier
24:58 - 25:55
Hey, no pressure here, but yeah, Spencer loves it when he hears something that really resonates with him. So continuing on this track for teams, whether they're small businesses or teams in corporate, the team may be fairly small and the opportunities may be fairly limited. Okay, well, We're just this size of an organization and we can't conquer the world. We do these things well and we serve these clients well. And so to some people, including the leaders, it may seem like, well, there are only so many opportunities I can offer, right? So how do you keep people growing in an organization where the perception is, whether it's by the team members or the leaders themselves, that the opportunities here are somewhat limited?

Christian Napier
25:56 - 25:57
How do you overcome that?

Theresa Bassett
25:57 - 26:33
Yeah, no, I love that question. Well, I think you kind of touched on it, Christian, when you're talking about the chaotic environment around us and we were talking about having to pivot, having to adjust as organizations and stay relevant. Even if we have small organizations, I mean, my team is only 20 people deep. I mean, I know I don't have a multi, you know, level bureaucratic organization myself. But think about the new tools that are emerging. You talked about AI. Think about the new perspectives that are out there with the younger generation coming into the workforce.

Theresa Bassett
26:33 - 27:09
There are always opportunities even for small teams to progress and for individuals. Maybe it's a new tool that they need to tackle. Maybe it's a new strategy or tactic or just an area that they've been wanting to explore. Having these continuous conversations with people like, okay, what went great? What could go better? What's next? I think we need on this progress equals happiness track to set up continuous conversations with our people so we can explore this. We don't have to go to the mountaintop as a business owner or as a leader and come up with the answer.

Theresa Bassett
27:09 - 27:15
We get to co-create it with them and go, hey, what have you been wanting to learn? How can I support you in that?

Spencer Horn
27:16 - 27:20
That just adds to their belonging, don't you think, if they actually participate in that?

Theresa Bassett
27:21 - 28:09
Oh, a hundred percent, because if somebody asked you your opinion, or if you've been wanting to learn something, or if you need a new different tool, I mean, isn't that a great compliment to you? I think it's like, Oh yeah. Wow. Dave, he cares about not just what I think, but what I need or what I want or what I see is next. And so that also is, yeah, that makes you feel valuable. Like your, your input is valuable, but it also shows that. They want to be in touch with you, that you matter, that your individual perspective and the things you see, because what I've seen is they know from inside the work so much better than I do many times what's next on that horizon.

Theresa Bassett
28:10 - 28:34
So if I have a come down from the mountaintop and bring the answer mentality, I'm missing out on so much because sometimes it's just these little small shifts. Oh, it's the next certification. Oh, it's the next tool. Oh, it's just spending, having a half an hour to explore this topic. You know, all of these are small ways to infuse that progress equals happiness into the culture.

Spencer Horn
28:35 - 28:44
Is this also what you, I'm just throwing it out there and it's not an open-ended question. I'm closing. Is this what you mean by co-creating what you were just talking about?

Theresa Bassett
28:44 - 29:23
Absolutely. Yeah, because I come from the coaching world. In coaching, it's very forward focused, but I didn't come from consulting. Consulting is more like, OK, go away, come up, audit, analyze, come up with the answer, come up with a plan, and bring the plan back to the team. And then they may or may not adopt it. Coaching is more like meeting people where they're at, right? Exploring using active listening skills to to ferret out solutions and things that are going on and then co-creating a plan to say, well, hey, what if we what if we did this?

Theresa Bassett
29:23 - 29:55
Well, what if the next step look like this? And co-creation is much more active, I would say, because the participant then is crafting the solution with you. There's much higher level of integration and adoption, and people typically feel more charged up and ready to go out of a conversation like that, as opposed to, I think you should do this. And the minute you come in with that kind of solutionizing, people get defensive, right?

Spencer Horn
29:56 - 30:16
Yeah, so then part of your formula is this leads to long-term success of your organization because people are excited, they're committed, they're dedicated, they're co-creating with the leaders of the business. They're feeling that progress, therefore happiness that is associated with the work that they're doing. So have I got the formula?

Theresa Bassett
30:16 - 30:53
Yeah, that's kind of a best case scenario. I mean, Jeff Bezos was the one who talked about the day one mindset, right? Coming into your business every day with that fresh perspective and really valuing and encouraging innovation. And this is a close cousin, you know, that progress equals happiness formula is about how do we make that day one mindset a thing and bake it into the culture, right? Encourage that all along the path. Because to your point, if people are engaged, if they feel like they belong to something, it's just a lot more fun to go to work.

Christian Napier
30:56 - 30:56
Yeah.

Theresa Bassett
30:57 - 31:01
Yeah. And where are you going to find that? I mean, honestly, not every

Spencer Horn
31:01 - 31:03
business... With Christian, Christian's team.

Theresa Bassett
31:04 - 31:18
Christian's team. Yeah. Well, that's really special. Those places are special and not every workplace is like that. And so if we can embrace this as business owners and bake this into our culture, we're doing the workforce a great service.

Christian Napier
31:20 - 32:16
Hey, Theresa, I'm curious. I actually started my career in accounting, right? So after college, my first job was working for a company and in their accounting office. And the accounting office had a, you know, there were well-established processes for handling things. From payroll to, you know, reconciling accounts and so on and so forth. And there's a certain kind of person that I noticed that was doing this kind of work that was very happy having an established daily routine, knowing, okay, I come in to work and I do this, this, and this, and then I go home and I come back the next day and I do this, this, and this.

Christian Napier
32:18 - 33:13
That person is not super interested And always learning new things. They feel quite comfortable in doing things the way that they've been done for a long time. And they find satisfaction from that. So how does that kind of an individual fit into this? Because when I hear, and I happen to be the kind of person that actually finds a lot of, I'm a total believer in the progress is happiness thing. I always am very intellectually curious. I want to learn new things. But I also recognize that not everybody fits that profile. Is there a place for people who are you know, very, they're very attracted to the routine of things and doing something consistent day in and day out.

Christian Napier
33:13 - 33:18
Is there a place for that kind of a person? I just think of West Side Story.

Theresa Bassett
33:19 - 33:20
West Side Story.

Spencer Horn
33:20 - 33:22
Yeah, there's a place for us.

Christian Napier
33:24 - 33:24
There's a

Spencer Horn
33:25 - 33:26
place for us.

Theresa Bassett
33:27 - 33:27
I think you bring

Spencer Horn
33:28 - 33:28
up a great

Theresa Bassett
33:28 - 33:45
question. Yes, I do think that there is a place and there has to be a blend within the organization. Here's the thing, if you have all innovation and no stability, that doesn't work. If you have all stability and it gets stagnant, that doesn't work. It needs to be a blend of these two things.

Spencer Horn
33:45 - 33:55
But don't you think that progress is actually doing the work in that way that, I mean, I can't wait to hear because I believe that is, there is a form of progress that's happening.

Theresa Bassett
33:56 - 34:36
Yeah, I agree. And I think that every individual has a need. And Tony Robbins was the one who touched on the six basic needs of an individual. And everybody has a need for stability, but everybody also has a need for variety. And so the pace of adoption and innovation might be different in those more stability-oriented individuals. And that's okay, but never changing anything, never giving, never, never improving a process or creating more efficiencies. I found that my detail oriented, more stable minded folks still love to work on efficiency.

Spencer Horn
34:36 - 35:03
Right. And so that's kind of, isn't that what Tuckman, Bruce, I mean, you've got the Bruce Tuckman to talk about, you've got forming, storming, you know, norming and performing, right? There's a point as you go through the organizational development, where you actually go through a chaos phase. And some people love that, others are super uncomfortable there. But as you get into that norming where things start to get calmed down, that's when they feel like you're actually making progress, right?

Theresa Bassett
35:04 - 35:39
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So to your point, it's all relative. And not everybody's wired for the exact same speed or the exact same processing time. But if you recognize that even those, you know, everyone on the team has similar needs, it's just relative to their personality type. and the way that they're wired. Because yes, I think that every organization actually needs a blend of those individuals. If you have everybody storming and nobody norming, you got a problem.

Spencer Horn
35:55 - 35:57
I mean, that's how I interpreted that, Christian. I mean...

Christian Napier
35:59 - 36:25
Yeah. That's great. I'm glad to hear that the blended approach is good here because I do think that there is a need for people to keep things running. You know, after the folks that who are the curious people who get bored easily move on to the next thing, you know, say, all right, we got we got to actually deliver some stuff here. So, you know, there's a there's a

Theresa Bassett
36:25 - 37:05
place for you. And I think this plays in, Spencer, to what you were talking about. You you hinted on, like, what's the magic in the seven figure threshold? You know, not every company comes up with their their system, their thing, the thing that they're really their, their secret sauce, right? The thing that they're going to really be good at and then solidify that thing enough, create enough norm and structure to that system, but then continue to innovate it and get over the threshold that takes leadership. So it's, it's easier to be a great doer. be self-employed, oh, I'm an attorney and now I have my own practice, right?

Theresa Bassett
37:05 - 37:25
But leading a team through the process of creating a system and then innovating it, keeping it fresh and continuing to make it relevant to the times and serve the marketplace, that's a different skill set than just being a great doer, right? Leading people and developing people is a totally different thing than being a great doer.

Spencer Horn
37:26 - 37:42
Yeah, and that's a mistake that many leaders make is they promote the doers because they're the best at the job and they actually fail at leading people doing the job. I'm changing gears a little bit. What's one common culture myth that you think leaders need to unlearn?

Theresa Bassett
37:45 - 38:21
Well, the first thing that popped in my head when you said that is that I don't believe in a one-size-fits-all management style. I think that sometimes when people are in overwhelm, It shows up looking apathy, like they don't care. But sometimes people are just overwhelmed. And I think that in this day and age, we have a lot of people in overwhelm because there's so much content being published. There's so much input. We're processing a lot of information. At the same time, we're raising families. We're on social media. We're inundated with news cycles, all the things.

Theresa Bassett
38:22 - 39:01
And a one-size, you know, pretty typical management strategy is, I'm going to hold you accountable. I'm going to change the tasks. I'm going to increase the deadlines. I'm going to micromanage this, right? I'm going to really hold you to task. And that one-size-fits-all management strategy doesn't work really well for people who are in overwhelm because all it does is it serves to push you to higher levels of stress, which actually flips you into more apathy. And so I think just really being able to meet people where they're at, look beyond how it's showing up to what some of the root causes for people's behavior might be.

Theresa Bassett
39:01 - 39:16
I would say that is a common myth within the culture is just like, well, if we just hold people to their deadlines, if we just create more accountability, we'll get higher results.

Spencer Horn
39:17 - 40:10
Teresa, you hit on something that I think is, from my perspective and my experience, is hugely important. I just told you that I spent the week speaking to several senior executive and CEO groups in the Rust Belt area there. I spend more time with senior executives on effective delegation and behavior correction than anything else. And the reason is they don't take the time to actually understand what's going on with their people. They're so focused on efficiency, that it is all about the one size fits all that you talked about instead of saying, you know, I had one executive that was talking about one of his project managers was being very apathetic, was never on, you know, never on time.

Spencer Horn
40:11 - 40:46
And our whole discussion was about how to have a conversation to figure out what's going on. Because you can't just pull that person and say, hey, listen, it seems like you don't care about your job. We put labels on people. We say they're showing up late, they're lazy, they don't like. And it seems so simple to just sit down and say, listen, I want to talk to you about the past projects, three projects that went past the deadline. Talk about outcomes, about here's what's going, and then what's going on? Tell me what's happening. This is not like you.

Spencer Horn
40:47 - 40:58
What's leading to these failures in performance? Not that you're lazy, not that you don't care. Figure out what's going on, and if you actually stop to listen, you'll find out.

Theresa Bassett
40:59 - 41:03
Yeah, and that kind of comes back to that co-creation conversation too, right?

Spencer Horn
41:03 - 41:04
It's coaching though.

Theresa Bassett
41:05 - 41:08
And it's coaching. It's not easy to do when you

Spencer Horn
41:08 - 41:08
get

Theresa Bassett
41:08 - 41:52
busy. I understand why it's easy for people to, you know, it does take extra effort. It takes extra time. I think, though, that to your point, if you make yourself available and you open up those kinds of conversational spaces and you make it safe for people to be real, you're going to get a lot of information. And you're going to increase your EQ tremendously because you're going to be in touch with what's really going on. And sometimes it's procedural. You know, I've talked to employees or, you know, been in situations like that where I'm, I'm coaching somebody in their organization and what they find out is there's a process, there's a resistance point somewhere in the process.

Theresa Bassett
41:52 - 42:25
And it's like, Well, this isn't really working because I keep sending this to over here and this isn't happening over here. And it's not really about anything personal. It's actually about the process. And there's some resistance point in the process. But without slowing down to have the conversation and open it up and go, what do you really see here? What's going on, Spencer? Then you're just missing the boat. So to your point, it's easy to slap a label on it. Much easier than just slowing down to have the conversation. I think sometimes leaders are afraid of the truth.

Spencer Horn
42:37 - 43:12
I agree and cut you off there. Sorry about that. And they're so focused on efficiency. The problem is it actually shoots them in the foot because it's like, To truly be efficient, you take a co-creating perspective, you're actually co-creating outcomes and solutions that the team member helps solve instead of you just saying, you need to fix this or else, right? That's not coaching. But it takes time to slow down and listen to what's going on. And ultimately, that's what's more efficient.

Theresa Bassett
43:13 - 43:34
Well, that's what I was going to say, Spencer. Isn't it the illusion of inefficiency because finding another person to do that work, training them, I mean, talk about inefficient. When you can slow down for a 20-minute conversation and maybe get through a sticking point versus launching into this whole recruitment and training

Spencer Horn
43:35 - 43:42
process. CEOs listening to this, 20 minutes, they're freaking out. I tell you, you can accomplish that in 10, 15 minutes at the most. 10, 15,

Theresa Bassett
43:43 - 43:44
absolutely. Just

Spencer Horn
43:44 - 43:46
stopping and listening. It's amazing.

Theresa Bassett
43:47 - 44:24
Yeah, absolutely. And aren't they organizationally so much better off in the long haul? Because aren't they also then teaching their people what it should look like? I mean, you as a leader, you've got to walk your talk. Do you want your other managers on your team doing that as well, overlooking the conversational opportunities, overlooking the chances for progress or innovation, and just plowing forward with what they think? needs to happen. I mean, don't you want infused through your culture, that being available for your people? I mean, our people are our best assets.

Spencer Horn
44:26 - 44:26
So I

Theresa Bassett
44:26 - 44:45
mean, yeah, they really, we don't, I don't know, I don't have anything if I don't have a team. I mean, I can't deliver my system, I can't deliver my services to the marketplace. My team is extremely important to me. And so, yeah, I got to show up for them.

Christian Napier
44:47 - 45:33
All right, I've been hearing this word efficiency thrown out a lot here. And our goal with this podcast is to help leaders build high-performing teams. But one of the questions that I have for you, Teresa, coming back to this efficiency, is what are the metrics for high-performing teams, right? Is it possible that we're looking at our team and we're frustrated because they're not doing this, that, and the other, but maybe we're using the wrong measures? The reason I bring this out is I was recently having a conversation with a Gartner analyst, and we were talking about AI and return on investment.

Christian Napier
45:34 - 46:25
Their position was that when it comes to the kind of office productivity use of AI that ROI is the wrong metric, because it's very difficult to demonstrate, you know, anything more than just minor incremental efficiency gains, broadly speaking. But what they found in their research is that return on employee is significant. So when they've done like employee net promoter score surveys, those who are using these tools on a daily basis report much higher job satisfaction than those who don't. So, you know, my question is, when we come to looking as leaders at the performance of our teams, how do we make sure that we're actually using the right measures of performance?

Christian Napier
46:25 - 46:29
Because maybe we're just looking at the wrong stuff. Great

Theresa Bassett
46:30 - 47:15
question. Yeah, that's a great question. I also, the thing that popped in my head when you were talking about that, Christian, is the opportunity costs that we're incurring by not using those tools. That's an even harder metric you know, to gauge, but we are paying opportunity costs when we're not staying relevant. You know, we're losing employees, we're losing time and efficiency in that. But I think that to your point about creating a clear measure of success for our team and our employees so that people know if they're doing well. That clarity is super important. I think it's a department-by-department situation in many cases, and maybe even a role-by-role situation if we have a very small organization.

Theresa Bassett
47:17 - 48:04
But you're right, we do have to create clear pictures and decide what those key metrics and that scorecard should look like so that people do know what they're plugged into. And those metrics should be the drivers, the key drivers, the lead measures that really drive success in the organization. So to your point, that could be employee retention for some, you know, in HR department, for example. It could be client retention if it's an account services team. It could be average client value. if it's a sales team or a services team. It could be, you know, so I think department by department, role by role, those key metrics do need to be discussed with employees.

Theresa Bassett
48:05 - 48:41
And I think you're right, a lack of clarity there could really create some confusion and some frustration on the management team's part, right? Because how do you even have a good collaborative conversation if people don't even know what they're shooting for? And I think it's pretty common in small organizations for this to be a little muddy. I mean, I don't see clarity and KPIs occur at the earliest stages of businesses. It's really once people can get beyond some of the basics. and start to get a system humming when they can start fine tuning along these lines of KPIs.

Theresa Bassett
48:42 - 49:33
But I think you're right, Christian. The faster, the better we can get clarity around it and then co-create those KPIs with our team. I don't want to sound redundant by keep using that word over and over. But again, what are the measures of success? What should success look like for that team? I think that's a great opportunity for a conversation in a department meeting If it's not clear, let's make it clear together. Yeah. I don't know. Do you see the same thing? Muddy KPIs at early stages of business, but that they get more specific and more clear as the organization gets more evolved and mature?

Spencer Horn
49:35 - 50:15
Yeah, I mean, I do. And I think that's right. I mean, Krishna, I'm talking about the mindset of efficiency, right? More than actually bottom line efficiency. Because in their mind, they're like, I gotta act, I gotta do, I gotta solve. And it's just, you know, I need to get this problem out of my office. That's an efficiency mindset. And so a lot of founders who wear so many hats are all about just solving problems. And that's the efficiency mindset I'm talking about. Instead of slowing down and working with those people and getting them involved and actually co-creating.

Spencer Horn
50:15 - 50:40
What are our OKRs? KPIs or OKRs, there's a lot of different terms for objectives and key performance indicators. You get to identify what those are and when you get buy-in for what those are and how they're going to be achieved, I think there's even greater commitment to those instead of KPIs or OKRs by fiat, right?

Theresa Bassett
50:41 - 51:22
Yeah, and actually to your point, the word that's jumping out at me as I'm listening to you guys is systems. If there's clarity in the organizational structure and and you've clarified the systems that create that success, then within each system, you can create clear scorecards. You can create clear core values and what a successful candidate would look like. So that goes all the way back to that recruiting piece. I think in small business, it's very common to have a lack of structure and systems. And so this is where a lot of the muddiness falls

Spencer Horn
51:23 - 51:39
And therefore, how do you manage, how do you manage progress so that you get to happiness? It's no fun. I mean, Christian and I talk a lot about sports. Christian's background is in, you know, major sports management. It's pretty boring to watch a sporting event with no score.

Theresa Bassett
51:41 - 51:41
Yeah.

Spencer Horn
51:41 - 52:07
It's not very motivating to know if you won or not. And I love what you said because it could be, you know, retention. It could be employee retention as an indicator of culture. It could be, you know, customer retention and all of those things. I mean, you can have different measures, but knowing what those are, I think actually can help create that progress that you're talking about.

Theresa Bassett
52:08 - 52:24
Yeah, and I've been at the founding stages of business at several different junctures, and I paid a lot of dumb tax in this area. So a lot of this comes out of that dumb tax. I didn't have systems that were very clear. I didn't have scorecards

Spencer Horn
52:24 - 52:24
and

Theresa Bassett
52:24 - 52:30
KPIs. I had to look up what KPIs stood for 20 years ago, because I didn't even know what it stood for.

Spencer Horn
52:31 - 52:33
It's an expensive learning curve, isn't it?

Theresa Bassett
52:33 - 52:36
Yeah, exactly. A real life MBA.

Spencer Horn
52:37 - 52:40
I'm going to have to remember, I'm going to use that, Teresa, the dumb tax.

Theresa Bassett
52:43 - 52:45
Paid plenty of dumb tax, absolutely.

Christian Napier
52:45 - 52:48
I love that.

Theresa Bassett
52:48 - 53:27
But that's one of the benefits of continuing to work on these systems and the clarity because you get better and better and better. And one of the things that we've noticed is that over the years, we have gotten better employee retention. We have gotten better. We're getting more innovation than ever because we're getting more buy-in from the team. They're innovating from within and not waiting for us To come down from the mountaintop with an idea and that's as a small business owner I mean that makes my heart sing right because I get to see them Them develop and and grow and I have a lot of young people on my team.

Theresa Bassett
53:27 - 54:02
I'm in marketing and sales And so it's a young industry and so, you know a lot of times I'm working with professionals who this is their first gig out of college or maybe their second gig out of college. And so I get it. I get a real opportunity to to to see them develop in some pretty awesome ways early on in their career stages. And so for me, creating those systems and that clarity and those scar cards is super important because that's what that's what these young professionals really need to set a good groundwork, I think, go forward.

Christian Napier
54:04 - 54:32
Well, I just noticed the time and it has absolutely flown by here, Teresa. So I'm going to ask you my last question and then I'll give time to Spencer to wrap up on his side. But so for my last question, I'm wondering if you can just kind of briefly describe to viewers and listeners what Diamond Group does, how you help people and the impact that you have seen working with organizations over these last many years.

Theresa Bassett
54:33 - 55:23
Yeah, thank you so much for the question. So the Diamond Group, we really are all about creating strong, resilient, organized small businesses. So we love serving small businesses and creating sustainable sales and marketing systems. Sales drives the bus. And so we love to help businesses, especially service-based businesses. So construction and home services, health care and professional services businesses are our three primary verticals, and we love to help small business owners, typically one to 10 million is our sweet spot in revenue, really help create sustainable systems that don't rely on the founder, right? Up until that point, a lot of business owners are the chief sales officers, and it's their charm and charisma and chutzpah that's getting sales driven in the door.

Theresa Bassett
55:23 - 55:37
I like to help bolster those business owners by creating a system that works for them. And in many cases, in spite of them. So that's what it's all about. Diamonds are created under pressure just like small businesses.

Spencer Horn
55:41 - 55:46
Okay. So I've got a lightning round for you. Okay. This is just like one word answers. Are you ready?

Theresa Bassett
55:47 - 55:48
Yes. Okay.

Spencer Horn
55:49 - 55:51
One word to describe your leadership style.

Theresa Bassett
55:53 - 55:58
Wow. One word. Adaptive.

Spencer Horn
55:58 - 56:01
A habit that every high performing team should develop.

Theresa Bassett
56:05 - 56:06
Listening.

Spencer Horn
56:07 - 56:10
Your go-to strategy for resetting a team that's stuck.

Theresa Bassett
56:16 - 56:21
Beginning with the end in mind, visioning, going to the mountaintop, going to the 90,000 foot view.

Spencer Horn
56:22 - 56:25
So in hiring, what's more important, mindset or skillset?

Theresa Bassett
56:28 - 56:28
Mindset.

Spencer Horn
56:30 - 56:33
The best investment a leader can make in their team, what is it?

Theresa Bassett
56:35 - 56:36
investing in themselves.

Spencer Horn
56:36 - 56:41
Okay. One book every team leader should read besides Up Level, of course.

Theresa Bassett
56:42 - 56:55
Oh, yeah. Good to Great. I think Jim Collins does a great job of talking about attracting the right people to the bus and putting them in the right seats on the bus. Okay. And that's something, yeah.

Spencer Horn
56:56 - 56:58
Favorite way to recharge after a busy week?

Theresa Bassett
57:01 - 57:04
Be outside. Nature.

Spencer Horn
57:05 - 57:09
I mean, I agree. What does a better way mean to you when it comes to teamwork?

Theresa Bassett
57:13 - 57:17
Tearing down silos, just really collaborating.

Spencer Horn
57:18 - 57:23
All right, now here's the most important one. Chicago, Detroit, or New York pizza?

Theresa Bassett
57:26 - 57:28
Wow, New York pizza.

Spencer Horn
57:28 - 57:30
Really? You're a Detroit girl.

Theresa Bassett
57:30 - 57:33
I know, but I really do like New York pizza.

Spencer Horn
57:33 - 57:34
Detroit

Theresa Bassett
57:34 - 57:37
pizza's good, but you gotta really like thick crust.

Spencer Horn
57:37 - 57:41
Right. Christian, that's all I got.

Theresa Bassett
57:41 - 57:45
Great questions, great questions. You guys are

Christian Napier
57:45 - 57:54
awesome. We've ended on a controversial, but potentially delicious note with New York pizza. This is fantastic. And on that note,

Theresa Bassett
57:54 - 57:56
lunch is right at hand, isn't it?

Christian Napier
57:57 - 58:08
That's right. So Teresa, thank you for giving us an hour of your time. If people want to learn more about how Diamond Group could potentially help them, what's the best way for folks to connect with you?

Theresa Bassett
58:09 - 58:25
Awesome question. Yeah, they can go to diamond-group.co. There is a contact form on there. That's the easiest way to get in touch with me and my team. Again, that's diamond-group.co. And we would love to learn about their small business and how we might be able to help.

Christian Napier
58:26 - 58:36
All right, fantastic. And Spencer, you've spent decades helping organizations build high-performing teams around the globe. How should people reach out and connect with you?

Spencer Horn
58:36 - 58:43
Just find me on LinkedIn, Spencer Horn on LinkedIn. And Christian, don't you think he's great, Teresa? Isn't he amazing?

Theresa Bassett
58:43 - 58:44
Oh, he's amazing. I

Spencer Horn
58:44 - 58:45
would

Theresa Bassett
58:45 - 58:51
love to get a sneak peek behind your team organization curtains. I think you guys are awesome.

Spencer Horn
58:53 - 58:58
Thank you, and Christian just makes me look good because he's so amazing. How can people find you, Christian?

Christian Napier
58:59 - 59:16
LinkedIn as well. Just look up Christian Napier on LinkedIn, you'll find me there. So it's been a really insightful hour. I really appreciate you, Teresa, and Spencer for this conversation. I learned a lot today. Listeners and viewers, we're grateful for you too, so please like and subscribe to our podcast. We'll catch you again soon.